Siffrin VS Asriel Dreemurr (In Stars And Time VS Undertale)

Siffrin VS Asriel Dreemurr

(Ultra27)

(Spycrab)

(Morta)

(Necrostar)

(Fenic)

(Toppat Torchwick)

“Infinity is forever, and that is what you are to me. You are my forever.”

- Sandi Lynn

Siffrin, the Traveler stuck In Stars and Time.

Asriel Dreemurr, Prince of the UNDERGROUND and your best friend.

Picture this, what would you do if you were stuck in a never ending time loop with the same people and events occurring over and over. Would you accept it? Would it make you snap? Or would you enjoy spending eternity with all those you care so much about? Maybe it’d make the world appear as nothing more than a stageplay everyone but you partook in, as friends became nothing more than characters. That is to be decided between these lost souls to time and their egos. Who truly knows what awaits in the future?

Before we begin…

First of all, 🚨major spoiler warnings 🚨for In Stars and Time and Undertale.

While Siffrin and Asriel both seemingly have one main game to go through, there’s still a fair amount of additional media.

For Siffrin, we are examining In Stars and Time, START AGAIN (both the demo and webcomic), the two In Stars and Time artbooks, any Q&A’s by the creator of the game, Insertdisc5, and the wiki, which is said to be reliable by Disc and was even worked on by them at points.

For Asriel, we are examining Undertale itself, the Undertale Art Book, Legends of Localization, and the Undertale Newsletter. We will also examine official merch as supporting evidence, as Toby Fox has taken great care in keeping it in line with the canon.

Also Trigger Warning on Siffrin’s side. There will be mentions of self-harm and mental breakdowns, so viewer discretion is advised.

Side note: We wanted to conduct our own research on Undertale from scratch with our own arguments; however, thanks to G1’s Ness VS Frisk Blog and the UNDERTALE Scaling Blog for some calculations. Massive credits as well to the following …

Without further ado, let's dive under this tale beyond stars and time.

Background

Siffrin

“Stars. The Universe is watching you. It has to, right? There has to be a point to all this, right? ‘Please enjoy the show’, you think, and ‘Curse you for clapping, for watching, for not doing anything to help, why aren’t you helping me, why aren’t you leading me, please tell me what to do, please, please, please.’”

Hear ye, hear ye! An evil king has taken control of the House of Change! He threatens to send the world of Vaugarde into an eternal rest with the magic of Craft! Together with the Chosen One, we will put an end to his madness!

…Alright, let’s give some context. This is Siffrin, one of many adventurers on a grand quest to save the world. An evil king (aptly named “King”) is using a kind of Craft—this universe’s form of magic—called Time Craft to stop time from passing. This Time Craft spell is gradually swallowing the country of Vaugarde in its all-consuming maw, slowly spreading throughout it and freezing anyone and anything in time. This all began in the House of Change, a place of religion for the country, which believes in the value of change—either in oneself or in the world around them. Mirabelle—one of your companions on this perilous quest—has been blessed by the Change God with immunity to the King’s magic. Alongside Mirabelle, Siffrin is joined by: Isabeau, a Defender (think police officer) with a “heart of gold”; Odile, expert in Craft and researcher of something idk from Ka Bue; and Bonnie, a child (who makes food!) (and has a frying pan!). Among these heroes, Siffrin’s role is akin to a rogue, with a dagger, swiftness, and the ability to sniff out traps.

After fighting off countless Sadnesses—creatures of darkness borne from negative emotion—and traveling throughout Vaugarde for Orbs (keys) to the House of Change, Siffrin and his party finally reach Dormont, the village surrounding the House. It’s the final day. All Siffrin and his party have time for is a few errands, prayers before the Favor Tree, and a sleepover. Finally, they wake up, enter the House, and open the first page to the beginning of the end. Will they survive? What will happen after they defeat the King? Can they defeat the King? Wha-

Siffrin doesn’t get to answer that, because he’s squished by a boulder. Sorry! …

…

TAPE REWIND

Rise and shine, Stardust! He wakes up the day prior, in a meadow before Dormont, as if he hadn’t just been turned into viscera by a booby trap. What’s worse, he has a mysterious, star-for-a-head humanoid by the name of Loop talking in his head. It turns out that, for reasons unknown, he’s stuck in a time loop. For all Siffrin knows, it could be the King doing this, or even Loop, suspiciously secretive as they are; regardless, he has a King to defeat, and a world to save. After all, this could be a gift; he can now cheat death as he and his party summit to the top floor, where the King resides.

Despite deaths from Sadnesses, banana peels, time-freezing tears, and one more boulder, Siffrin and his party are finally before the King. It takes a lot more loops and a lot more deaths, but, eventually, they defeat him, and free the world of his threat. The Housemaiden—the one who saved Mirabelle when the House was first attacked—is now free from her temporal prison. Siffrin, Mirabelle, Isabeau, Odile, and Bonnie can finally return to their normal lives…

I hope, one day, you can learn to forgive…

TAPE REWIND

Back in the meadow, the day before Siffrin began to ascend the House, the day before he and his friends defeated the King, the day before he’d reached the end… he’s back at the start. Back to Mirabelle waking him up from his afternoon nap, as if all the trials and tribulations and memories in between meant nothing. Because no matter how many times he tries, he’s going to keep reliving these two days over and over again. It feels like the very Universe is closing in on him, choking him to death, only to bring him back to life so it can do so again.

But it’ll be okay, just take a breather and stand up. No matter how many loops it takes, there must be a way, right? Maybe he just killed the King wrong; there’s some glaring secret or trick that he must be missing. And so he continues. More battles, more precious moments, more loops. He tries landing the final blow, he tries abandoning his friends, he tries stabbing himself, he even tries to bond with each of them so they unlock a special ability.

But all of it is no use. He’s still missing the way out. Is he? He’s done everything. So much so that his family is now just actors on a stage; NPCs who respond to Dialogue Line A with Dialogue Line B. It’s too tedious to replay all those supposedly precious moments when he’s the only one who’ll remember them. He has no time to hear about Mirabelle’s self-doubt, Isabeau’s dreams, Odile’s family, or Bonnie’s sister—he needs to unlock their special abilities. Mirabelle should accept she’ll always be alone; Odile should leave him like she did Ka Bue; Bonnie should always protect him, even if he gets himself hurt on purpose; and Isabeau should just accept he’s too weak to escape himself.

They’re hurt. They’re horrified. It’s as if Siffrin is no longer Siffrin; as if he’s possessed. Odile even suggests moving forward without him. Seemingly left with no other choice, Siffrin decides to leave his friends party behind himself.

As he ascends the House, ghosts of his past lives flicker in every corner. The friends he once had are now just reflections in a mirror. He, alone, will kill the King, ending the Loop once and for all. The final confrontation begins, and Siffrin has him on the ropes. Unfortunately, without his family Mirabelle by his side, he has no defense against the King’s Time Craft. It all goes dark, and Siffrin is frozen in time.

Rather than a bright meadow, Siffrin wakes up in a lightless abyss, his only companion being himself. Outlined in silver, a reflection of him, Mal du Pays, appears to remind him how his friends all hate him. How, even if he had defeated the King, his friends–nay, his family, wouldn’t want him around anyway. No, even if he hadn’t said all he did, even if he and his loved ones defeated the King together and broken the Loop, they would have left for their home countries. Siffrin would be abandoned, his only comfort the vague memories of a home erased from reality and a tongue nobody but him speaks. In or out of the Loop, it wouldn’t matter—he would always be an outsider.

Before Mal du Pays can pull him further into the darkness, his friends suddenly appear, freeing Siffrin and reflecting the King’s Time Craft back at him. While they had defeated the King in many loops before, this one carried a sense of finality with it, as now he was forever frozen in time by his own Craft; and despite Siffrin’s horrible treatment of them, they’re still a family, and they could never leave Siffrin to save Vauguarde alone. Once again, they walk to the end. They speak to the Housemaiden and she wishes them well on their return trip…

Home? No, Siffrin has no home but them! His island and culture have been erased from existence. Where is he to go after this? They can’t leave him. He won’t let them do that!

Suddenly, Siffrin’s body engulfs the cosmos, towering over the atmosphere and encompassing distant stars and galaxies. Mal du Pays, Siffrin’s Sadness, has manifested, and now he understands what’s behind the Loop: a wish. A wish to stay by his friends’ side in their adventure together, which was strong enough to compel the Universe to trap him in that adventure, forever. An inadvertent work of Wish Craft, the most powerful of all Craft types. The same kind that had erased his home country and even the concept of color from the Universe. It is a desperate struggle. His cosmic form swings wildly—at his friends and himself—pleading with them to never leave him. They can’t. He can’t. He can’t be alone in this world again: without a home, without a culture, without friends, without his family.

But nothing lasts forever.

With Loop’s aid, his friends had come to learn he was trapped in time. Rather than abandoning him, they jump to embrace him. It’s not forgiveness for all he’s done, but it’s an act of love. His hat flies off into the aether, along with the Loop and the pain he’s carried on his own for so long. Because sure, maybe after this adventure, Siffrin’ll have to go through life on his own sometimes, but that doesn’t mean Mirabelle, Isabeau, Odile, and Bonnie appreciate him any less. They’re a family, regardless of the distance; and even if they do separate for good one day, Siffrin can still trust in himself to move forward and embrace life in all its pleasure and pain.

Asriel

“Finally. I was so tired of being a flower.

Howdy! Chara, are you there? It's me, your best friend.”

Alright, a lot of us know the beginning of Undertale at this point, but let’s run through it one more time: The human, known as Frisk, falls into a hole, trapping them in an underground world of Monsters. Their first encounter is with Flowey—Flowey the Flower—whose silly name belies his cutthroat worldview: down here, it’s “Kill or be killed.” You don’t see him again until you fight Toriel and exit the Ruins. There, depending on your actions, he reveals that he not only knows about your—yes, you, the player’s—ability to SAVE and RESET, but that he was even able to do so himself before you arrived, so what’s going on? Who really is Flowey?

It turns out, Flowey used to be just like you: a living, breathing hum- er, Monster. Asriel Dreemurr was the child of Asgore and Toriel Dreemurr, the king and queen of the Underground and all Monsterkind. On one fateful day, he comforted a human child lying in a flowerbed, dazed and crying after their fall into the Underground. This child—the first fallen human, Chara—soon became the newest part of the Dreemurr family, and Asriel’s best friend. Laughter and smiles filled their days—flower-picking, Chara’s scary face, a failed butterscotch pie recipe. The Dreemurr family, nay, the entire Underground was alight with hope—hope for a brighter future between humans and Monsters.

But nothing lasts forever.

Presumably to free Monsterkind, Chara hatched a plan: intentionally poison themselves with buttercups and have Asriel use their SOUL to cross the magic Barrier trapping all of Monsterkind in the Underground. Despite Asriel’s reluctance, he trusted in Chara, even as they lay on their deathbed; and when Chara passed, Asriel absorbed their SOUL, to fulfill his half of the plan. With a human SOUL, Asriel transformed into a being of immense power, one whose magic and other abilities could threaten all of humanity. He carried his best friend’s corpse to their final resting place—their home village. Upon arrival, the residents immediately suspected Asriel to have murdered Chara. A desperate flurry of attacks ensued. The Chara inside him insisted on retaliation, to massacre those who had wronged Monsterkind so long ago. The Asriel, however, refused to bring their end goal to fruition. Instead, he endured each blow, ultimately only having the strength to return to the Underground. He soon collapsed, his dusty remains coating the same garden that he and Chara once loved to play in.

It was then that Asriel Dreemurr died…and reemerged as something else.

Commissioned by Asgore, Alphys began to experiment with injecting DETERMINATION into beings, empowering their SOUL. In the pursuit of science, Alphys took a unique approach: “What happens when something without a SOUL gains the will to live?” A golden flower from the human world; the centerpiece of Asgore’s garden. What she didn’t realize was this “patient” of hers, whom she injected with DETERMINATION, would not just be a sentient flower; rather, it was the soulless reincarnation of her late prince. On the same flowerbed where Asriel perished, Flowey awakened.

This Flowey was not the murderous maniac we first come to know; rather, he was a force for good. With the DETERMINATION to SAVE and RESET, Flowey aimed to address all of Monsterkind’s ailments—fulfilling their wishes, building lasting friendships, etc. It was in doing all of this that Flowey developed a curiosity, and it was this curiosity that killed the proverbial cat. “What if I chose this line of dialogue?” “What if I read this book instead of that one?” Flowey, with all the power in the world, continued to reset the timeline, exhausting all possibilities. Like actors and props on a stage, he soon found life—including the Monsters he’d helped and befriended—to be predictable and mechanical. Even when did a 180° and tried massacring Monsterkind, this only delayed the inevitable. He had explored every corner of the map, read every dialogue tree, completed every sidequest, fought every battle—and now could do nothing but do it again. And again. And again. The meaninglessness of it all became apparent to him. It was tiring, but he could do nothing about it. Asriel Dreemurr had died, and Flowey could never go back…

…Until Frisk arrived. As explained prior, Frisk (and by extension, YOU) and Flowey’s relationship had a…rough start. Frisk’s DETERMINATION had stolen Flowey’s control over the timeline, and he thus antagonized and attacked you. He even gained control over the six human SOULs—of those killed by Asgore in hopes of destroying the Barrier. This transformed him into Omega Flowey (aka. PhotoShop Flowey), an amalgamation of firearms and flora that stole back the timeline and terrorized Frisk. However, not even this form could defeat Frisk, whose cries for help galvanized the SOULs into rebellion against Flowey.

Now, to be clear, even as Omega Flowey, Flowey was still Flowey—a shell of his former, Monster self. It was only until Frisk reset the timeline and became a True Pacifist, befriending Monsterkind and aiding them in their struggles, that the opportunity came to him. In another attempt to take control over the six human SOULs, the entire Underground rushed to Frisk’s aid. He was cornered…but not overpowered. They had all unintentionally endangered themselves; he absorbed not only the human SOULs, but also the SOULs of all Monsterkind. With this, he was finally able to reawaken as the powerful being who’d carried Chara so long ago: the God of Hyperdeath, Asriel Dreemurr.

Reality exploded into technicolor, and the final confrontation between Frisk—who he’d mistaken as Chara—and Asriel began. Now, he could easily shatter Frisk’s SOUL with any one of his magical spells—lightning, stars, rainbows, and sabers.

But it refused.

Withstanding Asriel’s attacks—even his Hyper Goner and transformation into the Absolute God of Hyperdeath—Frisk’s SOUL forced Asriel to cave and face his inner demons—his loneliness, his longing for what once was but could never be, and his shame for all he had done. He transformed into a child, and cried. For in this brief moment, with the SOULs of the world inside of him, he was able to love again.

But nothing lasts forever.

Asriel knew this form was temporary; once the SOULs left him, that was it. He would return to being a soulless, lonely flower. In a last act of retribution, he shattered the Barrier encasing the Underground, enabling Monsterkind to once again feel sunlight on their skin. And in his final moments, Frisk hugged him, comforting him as he confronted his dark past and all that had led up to this moment. It was all this that gave him the bittersweet peace to let go and return to being a flower. Once you reach the end of this route, he, as Flowey, appears. He pleads for YOU, the player, to close the game—to leave Frisk and the rest of Monsterkind free to enjoy this brighter tomorrow. Because, despite trials and tribulations, Flowey, nay Asriel, had broken Monsterkind free. Not because of Chara, not because of the ability to SAVE and RESET, but because of a helping hand and a love for others.

Skill & Experience

Siffrin

Siffrin is mysterious and secretive in his origins, even though he doesn't really know or is able to remember anything about the land where he came from, and thus we don’t know the full scope of his experiences. What we do know is that he’s been travelling on his own for nearly all of their life, travelling to places all over the globe like Ka Bue and Poteria before going to Vaugarde where he met Mirabelle and the rest. In only a few months under the year that The King spent freezing the country in time,

Having traveled the whole country alongside his party for long grueling months facing countless foes, Siffrin has become quite the crafty swordsman, starting at Level 45 in-game. Although with his looping conundrum, Siffrin has drastically improved, not just their skill, but knowledge, being capable of recalling his country’s advanced research on the stars above.

Through his adventure, Siffrin continually develops their strength and magic even further and further reaching up to Level 99 by his own; though getting technical, 16 Loops is the bare minimum requirement for completing his journey. At most however, Siffrin can undergo up to 1000 loops in a single playthrough.

Asriel

Asriel, in his childhood, lacks real combat experience, as he was not in war and grew up comfortably in the royal family, but this all changes the moment he becomes Flowey. Flowey, restarting the game countless times, has experienced every possibility in Undertale, helped everyone, and killed everyone equally, including combat experts like Undyne, a trained warrior since childhood, or monsters that participated in the human war, like Asgore. Also yeah he defeated sans at some point…

Flowey got to the point of knowing absolutely everything in Undertale, every dialogue and option he knows by heart to the point of having nothing unknown in the game, becoming an incredible manipulator, as he was the one who pushed Frisk to start the pacifist route to carry out his plan to become Asriel with the power of human souls. Flowey was the one who indirectly guided Frisk through the game, such as to the True Lab, where he moved Frisk to New Home via an elevator, and knowing that they became friends with everyone, all the monsters would go to stop Asgore and it would be the perfect time to take their souls. He can also scam you for some reason. Why is he like this?

Equipment

Siffrin

Cloak & Hats

Above all else, a traveler wandering the world with his family has to have a stand out sense of style, and Siffrin doesn’t disappoint. As their attire is unique in that it came from his lost country, literally sowed out of the unknowable. His cloak for instance was sewn with a temperature regulation spell into it that maintains his bodily temperature, making it so he’s hardly affected by weather or extreme temperatures and that the cloak grows with him. His hat is seemingly made from the same material, but with the add on of boosting his attack speed and critical hit chance. For alternatives for his beloved hat, he has another, starry themed hat that he found in the House which increases both stats to a greater degree along with defense and healing him 5% of his HP every turn. If his hat somehow falls off though, don’t worry because that also increases his attack speed and defense like when he has his regular hat on, doesn’t make much sense but alright!

Daggers

Siffrin can’t just be killing with his looks though! As his encounters with sadness will usually show you, Siffrin’s primary way of dispatching them is a trusty dagger. Which he sharpens and carves with outside of battle to get it ready for his next fight, or just out of boredom. Either way, this weapon compliments Siffrin’s speed and scissor craft prowess perfectly, letting him slice up enemies before they even knew what hit them. This one knife isn’t the only one in his arsenal, he has Garden Scissors that pack more of a punch but make him slower and a KnifeKey given to him by The Change God capable of cutting through The King’s hair in a single strike before snapping; although with a little sharpening, it’ll deal greatly effective damage against The King. Onto a more serious and morbid manner, Siffrin has used this knife to get around the loops by forcing one to occur by lethally stabbing himself with it.

Tonics

Outside of the basics, Siffrin has access to a bunch of different items and consumables in his pockets that he and his family have found laying around the House. These items range from healing items, stat boosting items, damage inflicting items and more, all listed below of course.

Sour Tonic A drink apparently so sour that it heals 50% of a family member’s HP, didn’t know sour equated to health.
Super Sour Tonic A more concentrated and sour drink, this item heals 40% of all family member’s HP at once and is sour enough to make you do a kissy face when you drink it.
Crafted Water Water enchanted with healing Craft, this potion revives a family member if they are fainted to 60% of their HP.
Pepper Juice A spicy drink, this juice boosts everyone’s attack when used due to the pure spice it has.
Ginger Juice A type of juice that boosts everyone’s defense and helps them not be sick.
Thyme Juice A special type of juice that boosts everyone’s speed when used based on some kind of wordplay.
Sweet Tonic What’s better than sour? Sweet of course! Which is why this incredibly sweet tonic completely heals an ally’s HP.
Super Sweet Tonic A larger and heavier bottle of sweet juice that completely heals everyone’s HP and makes them smile.
Salty Broth While it may not heal, this salty mixture lowers an ally’s cooldown of craft skills by 6 through sheer salt.

Bomb

Moving on from standard healing and stat boosting items, Siffrin has a bomb hand made by Isabeau from a “Long Thingy-Thing”, “Short Gizmo Gadget” and a Secret Ingredient. This bomb can be equipped like any item and can defeat almost any enemy when it's finally activated, dealing around 3,000 damage in one go.

Memories

Through all of Siffrin’s various experiences, he makes a lot of memories with his friends—some of which even boost his stats or give him special abilities! Yes, in this game, Memories are equipable items you unlock as the story progresses.

(NOTE: There are collectible Memories in the prologue as well. However, these have no effect on combat, and instead function as achievement markers.)

Memory of Self Get +5 on all stats.It’s you!
Memory of Keys Provides Siffrin with the directions for keys to doors he’s unlocked in previous Loops.You’ll get used to this maze… In the meantime, this’ll bring you back the memories to guide your way.
Memory of Ghosts No effect on combat.Allows you to be haunted by the ghosts you yourself are responsible for.
Memory of Touch Lose -50 to all stats.Keep your lips to yourself.
Memory of Fishing Siffrin gains +2 attack for each time he’s gone fishing in Dormont, at the cost of a flat -20 attack speed. Fish fear me.
Memory of Barrels At random, Siffrin will discover items in barrels.You’re a curious little CRAB!
Memory of Pillars At random, Siffrin will discover items around pillars. Quite the eye-catching individual.
Memory of Looping Increases max HP by +5 per Loop.Over and over and over and over and over and over and-
Memory of Sadness Sadnesses will run away from you.All they fear is you.
Memory of Defeat Acquire thrice the Memories* when defeating common Sadnesses.Just stop losing.* - Memories is also the name for an in-game currency to loop forward in time. These are the types of Memories which Memory of Defeat refers to.
Memory of Victory Automatic attack boost at the start to any battle.Just keep winning.
Memory of Family All party members except Siffrin receive doubled EXP from encounters.You care for them. A lot.
Memory of Memories Grants Siffrin the ability to understand his forgotten native language.A gaze to your past, one word at a time.
Memory of Emptiness After their betrayal, this memory lets Siffrin immediately loop back to fight the current encounter if defeated.
Memory of Bomb Grants Siffrin the Bomb after looping back to the King.KABOOM! You may not know how to make a Bomb, but this memory lets you start with one before facing… him.
Memory of KnifeKey Grants Siffrin the KnifeKey after looping back to the King.It eases you to sharpen it. Start with the KnifeKey as you’re about to oppose… he.
Memory of a Journey Siffrin’s current and permanent new Memory. Passively heals 6% HP after every turn.Despite everything, it’s still you.

Asriel

Heart Locket

“It says ‘Best Friends Forever.’”

A symbol of the truest form of love gifted to both the Prince and the First Human. While it may regularly only boost DF by +15, those who know its true value gain +99 DF instead.

The Six Human Souls

Taking advantage of the king's carelessness, Flowey took the opportunity to steal the 6 souls of the fallen humans and absorb them, gaining the powers of a God and using the souls to attack, each soul has a different attack pattern, though all can do things like heal and completely nullify powers.

Integrity: The soul of integrity creates a row of stars to prevent the enemy from fleeing, along with giant ballet shoes that literally stomp the enemy.

Perseverance: The soul of perseverance attacks with negative words. No, it's not some kind of metaphor, literally negative words related to things like death and nightmares appear on screen to harm you.

Patience: This soul creates a pattern of giant knives that covers the entire screen until the player finds a way to escape.

Kindness: This soul's attack consists of creating huge frying pans, which, when cooking, throw fire at the enemy.

Justice: Clover from the famous video game Undertale Yellow?!?!?!?!?!! The soul of justice uses a giant revolver to shoot the player.

Bravery: When attacking, this soul creates giant hands that rotate in a circular pattern, damaging the player.

Monster Souls

Monster souls, though weak and unable to persist after death, are not to be underestimated. After all, the souls of all the monsters underground are equivalent to the power of a human soul, the power Flowey needed to become a god. The absolute nature of the soul is unknown, but it is believed that they are made up of love, hope, and compassion.

But not only are they the boost Asriel needed, but by having the souls of all the monsters in the Underground, Asriel should have all the monsters' abilities, since as we see with PhotoShop Flowey, Flowey can use the powers of the souls he absorbed. This includes:

Chaos Sabers

Two swords Asriel can summon for wide melee swings and transform into magic sparks. He always starts with a right swing.

Chaos Buster

A blaster which can simultaneously fire bullets in three or four directions. After a short charge, it can fire a large rainbow beam alongside an omnidirectional burst of magic stars.

Abilities

Siffrin

Craft

As the main magic system used in battle, Craft is the art of sculpting the assets of the world to whatever shape you want, it's an omnipresent form of battle that can be used by everyone in the verse though only a select few are able to master it. Though most are assigned with specific Craft types, there are several Craft types but the main 3 are symbolized by Rock, Paper and Scissors. The premise is simple: Rock, or Protecting Craft, gets beaten out by Paper, Creative Craft, and Paper gets beat out by Scissors, Piercing Craft. With his speed and dagger by his side, Siffrin is a Scissors type, specializing in fast paced and strong attacks by attacking multiple enemies at once and buffing the stats of others before the enemy has a chance to attack, with the downside of being somewhat of a glass cannon. There are other types of Craft however, such as Body Craft, the art of modifying one’s body and appearance, and Time and Wish craft, which we will get to in time.

Performing Craft abilities requires some deal of energy from the user to be consumed, though with basic Craft like Siffrin’s own, the depletion is barely noticeable. For instance, Crafting clay into a shape or other materials into a sword won’t tire the user out. And in battle, Siffrin’s Craft aren’t shown to exhaust or slow him down. Craft also needs a sort of ritual to use in battle, the more powerful the Craft the harder it is, but the Craft Siffrin and his Party Members use only involves doing specific hand signs. Which is both how you can identify an enemies or allies Craft type and why you see Siffrin hitting all sorts of poses before striking. Once an attack is dealt, it’ll take awhile for the user to be able to use it again, though this can be minimized with items such as Salty Broth. But now onto Siffrin’s pool of Craft abilities, there’s a lot to choose from and they’re all useful in different situations, such as…

Knife To Meet You A basic Scissors attack, 10% chance to lower Defense for 3 turns. 1 turn of cooldown.
Too Cleaver by Half A Scissors attack that deals damage to all enemies, 10% chance to lower Attack for 3 turns. 3 turns of cooldown.
Make Up The Time A non-damaging move that boosts the speed of Siffrin and his Party Member for 3 turns. 3 Turns of cooldown.
Turn It Up A move that gives Siffrin’s attack turn to an ally, boosts the chosen ally’s attack and crit chance by 25% for that turn. 1 turn of cooldown.
Buy One Get One Three A Scissors attack that hits the enemy 3 times in a row, 20% increase in crit chance. 2 turns of cooldown.
Done Heal A healing move that restores 30% of an ally’s HP and boosts their attack for 3 turns. 2 turns of cooldown.
In A While, Rockodile A Rock attack that while fairly weak, gives 2 Jackpot points instead of the usual 1. 2 turns of cooldown.
Rose Printed Glasses A Paper attack similar to the previous attack, giving 2 Jackpot points instead of 1. 2 turns of cooldown.
Regener-ade A non-damaging move that regenerates 10% of Siffrin or any of his Party Member’s HP every turn for 3 turns. 5 turns of cooldown.
Tear You Apart A much stronger variant of the other Paper attack, this attack still keeps the trait of adding 2 Jackpot points instead of 1. 2 turns of cooldown.
Rock Bottom Same as the last, this is a much stronger variant of the other Rock attack, dealing 2 Jackpot points instead of 1. 2 turns of cooldown.
(Just attack.) An incredibly strong Scissor attack, and the strongest attack in Siff’s arsenal, this straight to the point attack attacks all enemies although it doesn’t give a Jackpot point. 3 turns of cooldown.
(Ask…) In case Siffrin wants to figure out the answers to any questions he may have, he’s learned the sacred ability of… talking! Seriously though, this lets him ask whatever without wasting a turn of battle.
(Call Loop.) An ability used outside of battle, this ability allows Siffrin to communicate with Loop wherever and whenever.

Jackpot

With all combative Craft being confined to the three types involved in Rock, Paper, Scissors, there is however a curious feature. If the same Craft type is used 5 times in a row with no interruptions, something known as a Jackpot occurs. A Jackpot heals the user and all of his allies, even if they’re downed or frozen in time, and attacks all enemies with huge damage of that very same Craft type.

The Loop

By far the most important and iconic aspect of the game lies in the fact that our beloved pun making traveler is stuck in a time loop where whenever he fails in trying to beat The King; whether it be through death, getting frozen in time, saying the wrong thing to a person, or even when he beats The King and talks to The Headhouse Maiden, he is sent backward in time to do it all over again. Either to the point of where he was when he failed or all the way back to the beginning of the day. This blessing and curse was born from Siffrin’s wish to stay with his family forever, never wanting them to go home and abandon him. This wish somehow merged with the wishes of others in Vaugarde, which was the wish to see The King defeated. As a result, this makes it so that Siffrin will loop back whenever he is separated from his party members in any way, which can be something as simple as them going home or as violent as one of them dying or whenever he dies at the hands of just about anything, ignoring the limits of time and space as he goes back.

The process of looping is described by Siffrin as the whole universe closing in on them with a strange glitch effect that smells of sugar, The Head Housemaiden says that this glitch is something that is breaking, failing, rotting, heavily implied to be the universe itself as later dialogue and context suggest the Loop and Wish Craft operating on such a scale. When the loop does happen, Siffrin feels a tug on their stomach until he is flung backward in time, “walking” through time so to speak. Which apparently smells of caramel and makes people have headaches immediately. Afterward, the previous timeline isn’t just rewound, it's completely erased with a new timeline being set up where it once was but at a different time. Because of this, there is only ever one timeline in In Stars and Time, even when factoring in the prologue's timeline.

While sometimes the Loop will simply leave Siffrin back at the beginning, most of the time, dying or being incapacitated anywhere else gives Siffrin the choice of going anywhere in the Loop, these main locations in game are a normal town in Dormont and 4 main layers of a castle full of sadness and The King. Each stage of his loop that Siffrin can go to requires memories if he’s Looping forward in time to them, up to 20 if going from Dormont to The King, but going back in time requires none. This is done in a sort of selection screen described by Siffrin to be the “nothingness” between Loops which isn’t entirely inaccurate, as this is said to to be in-between time by The Chance God and allows Siffrin to view the locations he is looping to.

Something that’s rather inconsistent about the Loops isn’t their range, in particular, Change God says that there is a pocket or bubble of time that is rewinding thanks to Siffrin that is around Dormont while The King states that he feels the effects of the Loop and its Wish Craft around the whole of Vaugarde. Ignoring how these aren’t consistent with one another, as one says just the town while the other says the country, they can mostly be chalked up to each character’s perspective. Change God is Vaugarde and Dormont’s own god, it is possible that they are only seeing the loop from this viewpoint, not getting the full picture, as even they state in the same dialogue that their existence is dependent on the possibility of the future, the future of Vaugarde. The King meanwhile only states he is feeling the effects of the Loop around Vaugarde, we have no idea if what he says about the outside being unaffected is even true, as The King pretty consistently has had dominion over Vaugarde and nothing else, literally stopping on its borders. He’s never shown to be able to sense or control anything outside of it. In any case, either interpretation just isn’t consistent with what’s shown in game, where the entire world is affected by Siffrin’s loops, the universe closes in on him, the countless statements of the universe being broken or rotting when the Loop is starting and the timeline being erased when the Loop happen all point to the Loop affecting the planet to whole universe as the most consistent range for it.

The ability to loop backward in time was granted to Siffrin through the combined power of Vaugarde’s wish to defeat The King and his wish to stay with his family, creating a will stronger than even The King’s time stopping capabilities. This “Wish Craft” linked Siffrin to a higher power, giving him the Loop, with this higher power being the very universe itself. Literally binding him to the universe’s will the same way the moon is bound to the planet and the planet bound to the sun. This link with the universe is what is responsible for these Loops, and it's pretty damn hard to get rid of. Even the universe breaking caused by red won’t hamper the Loops and the Loops don’t just rewind the timeline, they erase the looped timeline. Meaning that the destruction of the universe and timeline won’t be enough to rid of our favorite trauma inducing plot device, as the Loop would just rewind the whole thing back to how it was.

As for other properties of the loop, on occasion, the loops will cause characters or items from previous loops to appear; these ghosts act as loops done prior bleeding into the current Loop before The Universe rights itself and restores the spatial and temporal anomaly to how it should be. For example, if there's a weapon you already grabbed earlier, if that weapon shows up again The Universe corrects that mistake and transports it into your items, rewriting itself completely. It can do at either random intervals or at points that benefit Siffrin, skipping over certain events and nights in the blink of an eye. Over the course of the game, Siffrin gradually gets better at controlling their Loops to do it whilst they’re panicking to a specific spot to avoid… less than pleasant conversation and events.

Save Points

What’s more is that the wish gave various other tools to help Siffrin utilize the Loop to his greatest ability, up to and including save points that are officially acknowledged by Siffrin. Now I know what you're thinking, and to that I say that these aren’t your typical save and load mechanic that’s canon like in other RPGs, as these are never focused on nor is the player any sort of big role in the game. Given how they appear right before Siffrin loops back and are star-shaped, they're pretty obviously tied to the loops in some way. Meaning that these are more points where Siffrin can save his progress in a loop and go back to it from a different Loop if he needs to rather than your standard save and load immortality. Still, that gives Siffrin the ability to go back to whenever in the loops he wants, so it's useful either way.

Zoning Out

If Siffrin wants to skim past through points and conversations in the loop that he’s already gone through, he can fast forward through these moments at incredibly fast speeds by apparently zoning out, including parts of the game where he has to say or perform some sort of action. Implying this zoning out is more than just a bad habit and a real thing. Zoning out stops if Siffrin experiences a new dialogue or important information, making it much easier to sort through all of his findings throughout the Loops.

Wish Craft

The cause of the loops in the first place and how Siffrin got as much power as he has now, Wish Craft is an ancient and widely forgotten type of Craft all about achieving borderline limitless effects just by wishing for it. With the right ritual linking the will of the user to The Universe, both them and The Universe give the wish direction. However there needs to be a strong will in the user for the wish to be likely. For example, if you wish to win your next coin flip but don’t believe strongly in it, the probability of the wish being fulfilled are lowered compared to if you used the right ritual and have a strong will. A wish being granted doesn’t always have to be super straightforward, if you wish to freeze a country in time like The King, instead of that wish being handed to you it’ll give you the ability to freeze people in time to help you. If two wishes were in competition with one another, it is theorized that they would either cancel out or be equal to each other, but in game we see that the stronger will wins out over the other. Since dying to The King or being frozen by him is reset by the loops.

In Siffrin’s case however, his wish to stay with his family merged with Vaugard’s wish to save the country, forming a will stronger than The King’s own and strong enough to bring color back into the world which was previously erased by, you guessed it, Wish Craft. Making Siffrin's Wish Craft arguably the strongest ever recorded. The ending of the game also shows that at his peak, he can use Wish Craft on will without needing a ritual and just by using the amount in the air. Though it's debatable if he can control the effects, especially in the mental state he is in near the ending. With such impressive power, it's no wonder how Siffrin ended up trapped in the loops in the first place and because of this, we can compare his potential capabilities to other usages of the Craft.

The most relevant use of Wish Craft is shown in Siffrin’s home country, which was erased from everyone’s memories by someone wishing for it. While it is still physically present, no one can go to it and no one can remember it, which includes anything that originated from there like languages, religion, culture or its name. The Universe is literally stopping anyone from even thinking about anything relating to the country. Which is why when Siffrin and The King both attempt to say it, The Universe and reality itself break with red cracks appearing. Representing the fact that something is being broken by the name being remembered and quickly fixed by The Universe putting everything back into place.

Being an all black and white world with the only differences being shades and lighting, color has been erased from the world entirely a long time ago because of Wish Craft. Several theories exist as to what color is and what was what color, since along with it being gone it is forgotten the same as the country. It is important to point out that Siffrin in Act 5 was able to bring color back into the world through his mental breakdown, meaning his powers are on this level.

Loop, while they were still like Siffrin and trapped in a time loop, gave up on their wish and wished to escape the loops entirely. The Universe delivered by placing them in another Siffrin’s loops, the main Siffrin we play as. It ripped them from their own universe that was being erased and placed them in another, making them immune to the effects of the loops, which erases the timeline everytime Siffrin loops. Despite having given up on their loops and made a new wish, Loop actually kept the ability of looping backwards in time when they die, though to a lesser degree since it only seems to affect themselves. But still that does mean that a wish’s effects can be stacked, and for someone like Siffrin who has more power over Wish Craft, that’s very useful.

All of these are the most notable effects of Wish Craft that Siffrin can potentially perform if need be, that isn’t all of them however, as Wish Craft is obviously incredibly versatile. Wish Craft can give the user immense and immeasurable levels of power to withstand heavy Crafts like Time Craft or alternatively turn the user into a being powered by Wish Craft, use The Universe to direct how it is fulfilled which could mean that it can control over fate to make you win, along with many, many more given there is no clear limit on what you could wish for.

Resistances

  • Pain - After countless loops of being crushed, stabbed, tripped by banana peels, and other terrible ends, Siffrin got used to the intense pain prior to looping. As such, he should have a heightened tolerance to bodily injuries, at least after the first few loops.
  • High Temperatures - His robe was sewn with a temperature regulation spell, keeping him comfortable in all kinds of weather.

Asriel

Monster Physiology

One of the two species that ruled the earth years ago, monsters, beings that unlike humans, who are made of water, monsters are made of magic, and do not have enough physical matter by comparison to resist powers such as determination. Being made of magic, monsters' bodies are in symphony with their souls, which are made of feelings such as love, compassion and hope. Being strongly bound to their souls, monsters are in tune with their emotions, i.e. if a monster does not want to fight, its defences will be reduced, and if a powerful soul attacks, it will do much more damage.

One ability that monsters have, and which led humans to start the war in the first place, is the ability to absorb the human soul once the human body dies, this endows them with unfathomable power, superior to any regular human or monster, by having the power of human soul determination, monsters become much more powerful, and by absorbing the equivalent power of 7 human souls, they become a God, practically invincible. Monsters cannot persist after death, as being so physically weak, they turn to dust and their souls disappear along with their bodies almost instantly after death, but this is where the exception comes in.

A Boss Monster is a rare species of monster, the only known examples are Asgore, Toriel and Asriel, they are powerful enough that their souls persist after the death of the body, if only for a few brief moments, leaving them vulnerable to being absorbed by humans, or even powerful enough beings can absorb the monsters without the need to kill them first, due to the fragility of their magical bodies. A boss monster is also infinitely long-lived, when they have a child, boss monsters begin to age to give their vitality to their child as it grows up, but by not having a child, such a monster will live for thousands and thousands of years more, never being affected by age.

SOUL Manipulation

The soul is the most fundamental part of a being in Undertale, after all, it is the very culmination of your own being, the deepest scene of someone, and the soul defines who or what you are as a whole. Although there are clear differences between human souls and monster souls, such as the ability to handle determination, or being able to persist after death, monsters have multiple ways to affect the human soul with different effects, although they cannot affect the souls of other monsters (Flowey is the exception, being neither a monster nor a human because he lacks a soul), these would be:

Soul Destruction: After killing a human, all monsters are able to destroy their souls to pieces with sufficient damage. However, whether or not this is Durability Negation will be discussed later.

Soul Absorption: The reason the war started in the first place, when a monster kills a human, it can absorb their soul, becoming an entity of enormous power and able to wipe out humanity and monsters with ease. Because they are not fully physical, monsters have the disadvantage that their souls can be absorbed without killing them, just as Flowey does in the pacifist ending, by absorbing the souls of the entire underground simultaneously.

Soul Control: During the final fight, after absorbing the souls of all the monsters, Asriel was seen to take control of the will, turning them into lost souls and attacking Frisk, Asriel achieved this through a corruption capable of affecting souls after absorbing them. Previously, Asriel has been seen to do this, forcing human souls to attack Frisk (although they end up revealing themselves) and forcing Chara’s soul not to destroy humans.

DETERMINATION

You are filled with DETERMINATION.

Being literally a physical substance that emanates from human souls and can be injected into other beings, Determination is undoubtedly one of the greatest powers in the Undertale universe, and Asriel could not be left out of this. Determination is, as Alphys explains, the strength to live and persist after death. This is why human souls can persist once the body is dead. Although this is a power mostly used by humans, there have been cases of monsters using it, for example Undyne, who after losing all her life, managed to persist thanks to the determination she felt to stop the human, allowing her to regenerate before dying and take a new form much more powerful than before, Undyne The Undying, a monster who felt the hearts of all monsters and humans beating together with a single goal: to defeat us.

When Alphys extracted the determination from the human souls collected by Asgore, she decided to inject it into the first flower that grew in the garden, giving birth to Flowey, who had the consciousness of Asriel. With determination, Flowey was able to refuse to die, as when he attempted suicide and reappeared in his last saved point, being able to persist after death even without a soul and having full control over the timeline. When someone has more determination, the powers of other Determination users are nullified, this is demonstrated when Flowey states that he lost the power to upload his file as Chara's determination was superior to his, as control over the timeline belongs only to the most determined being in the Underground.

Human determination is immensely powerful, so much so, that the power of a single human soul is equivalent to the power of the souls of all the monsters combined. Asriel obtained the determination of not only the 6 human souls, but also of all the monsters, equivalent to 7 human souls in total, making him a legendary being made of the power of every soul in the Underground. With such levels of determination, Asriel could prevent Frisk from fleeing to their save file, making it impossible to save the game and tying Frisk's determination.

Various uses of Determination:

Possessing the Determination of all monsters in the underground and one equal to or greater than Frisk’s, Asriel should scale to the many abilities granted by this power:

Magic

Magic, one of the most important and fundamental powers in the Undertale universe, is the basis of almost all powers in existence. Humans used magic to create the barrier that sealed the monsters underground, which could only be destroyed by the power of 7 human souls. The monsters are almost entirely made of magic, meaning that they have almost no physical matter in their bodies, and when they die, their magical bodies instantly vanish into dust along with their souls. One of the uses of magic that all monsters have is non-physical interaction, as magical attacks are capable of damaging ghosts, while regular physical attacks are not.

Stats

HP: Basically, Hit Points define how much damage a character can receive before dying, if your HP reaches 0, you lost the game. HP can be recovered in different ways to avoid running out, these are: sleeping at MTT Resort, sleeping at Snowdin's inn, eating consumable items, or just interacting with a save point. For more determined beings, there are methods that do not require items, such as the healing of the 6 human souls, or the determination itself, which heals Frisk when they feels the support of their friends or Undyne's determination that allows her to heal after dying.

ATK: Attack, which measures the damage inflicted on enemies and can be increased by weapons and LV. By having more LV, a powerful soul will do more damage by its murderous intentions towards souls that do not wish to fight. Asriel's attack is literally infinite.

DEF: Defense reduces HP loss, and can be increased by armor. The DF is subtracted from the damage inflicted by the attacking group, the reduction of damage to the protagonist is 1/5 of his DF, rounded to the normal value. This means that for every 5 of defense (starting from 3), the protagonist receives 1 point less damage. However, he cannot reduce the damage he receives to a value lower than 1. Like his attack, Asriel's defense is literally infinite.

EXP: EXP I's an acronym, It stands for “execution points.” A way of quantifying the pain you have inflicted on others. By killing someone, a character gains EXP, which distances him from others and increases his ability to deal damage thanks to the power of his soul, and with enough EXP, the LV increases. Which brings us to…

LV: Love, is what the player and Flowey get when killing other monsters, it is an acronym for “Level of Violence”, it is a way of measuring the capacity to damage, the more you kill, the easier it is to distance yourself, the more you distance yourself, the easier it is to hurt others. While it might interest you that having more LV increases your strength, this is possibly not the case; as Snowdin's library explains, the more murderous intent someone with a powerful soul has, the more damage they will do to monsters that don't want to fight, as seen when Chara attacks Asgore who didn't want to fight. The more LV you have, the more violent you are and the less you are affected by hurting others, which will make your damage to monsters higher as you have more killing intent.

Save and Load

As Flowey describes it, “The power to reshape the world…”, this is one of the powers offered by being the most determined character in the Underground, is to be able to use the save and load system of the game, a canonical mechanic within Undertale that Frisk, Flowey and the other human souls have available to them as the most determined beings in this world. Saving allows you to save your game thanks to a save point that is the manifestation of your own determination, saving your game, and as it happened to Flowey, returning to the last save you made after dying. Load allows you to automatically return to the last place where you saved your game, without the need for a death, we see Flowey save and load the game over and over again in the middle of the fight against Frisk, being useful to load his game until a moment where he had all his HP to avoid death. This power is also capable of changing the fate, being able to go back in time and change the events already established over and over again, with total freedom to do as you please.

Data Erasure

During the end of the Neutral Route, Flowey gained full control over the game, with this, the first thing he did was to erase our progress and our save to prevent us from trying to run away from him by going back in time. As a curiosity, in the xbox version of Undertale, if you disconnect the controller, Flowey will threaten to delete all our data if we don't connect it in 10 seconds, although this obviously doesn't happen, it's something interesting and worth mentioning.

Chara is a bit of a unique case, as destroying the world will wipe out the internal game files, Toby even planned for the whole game to be wiped out, although he couldn't program it correctly, this is the idea of what Chara can do. As for how Asriel scales, it's simple; Chara uses the player's determination to do everything, i.e. the same determination as Frisk's soul, Determination that Asriel overcomes or at the very least matches, he even mentions that it would be Frisk's determination that would do this, and even that it is Frisk who would help Asriel achieve his goal, implying that Asriel can use the same determination as Frisk. This actually makes a lot of sense, as Asriel was about to use True Reset, the power that the player only gets with maximum determination, and the same power that Chara uses to recreate the world after eliminating it, Asriel was even planning to destroy the world and then use True Reset in the same way as Chara, so Asriel would be able to replicate this if he wanted to.

Reset

The power to reset, to be able to go back in time and do everything you want without anyone knowing, to revert all your actions to live without consequences, is one of the powers that comes with being the most determined being in the Underground.

When using a reset, all game events are reset until the arrival of Frisk, this erases the memories of most characters (except Frisk, Sans, Chara and Flowey), although this can leave memory residue on some characters, for example, Toriel, who has the feeling of knowing us from before and even remembers our favorite flavor of cake. When a reset is performed, everything is sent to a new timeline, as Sans states, the timelines jump back and forth in the space-time continuum, confirming that this is the cause of the reset as it directly accuses us of this. Flowey used the reset many times, more than we can probably count, claims to have helped everyone, killed everyone, read every book, done absolutely everything the world has to offer, resetting the timeline countless times over an extended period of time, long enough to get tired of experiencing everything within reach.

True Reset

Beyond a conventional reset, a True Reset is a reset capable of deleting and resetting the vast majority of the game's files, with the exception of the genocide route file. Asriel's intention with this ability was to reset everyone's memories and wipe all player progress so that they never leave the game, even wiping the memories of characters who remember conventional resets, such as Frisk, Flowey or Sans, by ripping everyone out of the current timeline and sending them to a place where nothing happened.

As for how Asriel gets this, it's because the True Reset is what Asriel wanted to get after defeating Frisk and having control over the timeline, what prevented him from accessing this is the fallen human's Determination, which was equal to his, but without Frisk in the way, Asriel should have full access to this.

Fire

As the prince of the Underground, Asriel inherited Asgore and Toriel’s main power, the power to attack his enemies with fire. Although it is magic, this fire acts like real fire, and can be used for cooking instead of regular fire.

Star Blazing

Asriel can summon a rapidfire shower of magical stars, each of which explode in all directions into tinier stars. It concludes with a gigantic star and subsequent burst of stellar shrapnel.

Shocker Breaker

Asriel can summon lightning bolts of varying sizes to mercilessly strike down upon his target.

Hyper Goner

When Asriel had had enough of Frisk's persistence, he summoned the Hyper Goner, this attack is a large goat head that begins to swallow the entire stage around it, pulling objects and his opponent into the center of the suction.

Before using it, Asriel says it's time to “purge this timeline”, implying that it is this attack that swallowed the timeline quickly. That is however not an open-and-shut case, and it will be addressed further before the verdict.

Resistances

Forms

Siffrin

ACT 5

Near the end of the game on Act 5 and past the point where Siffrin's patience was wearing thin and he just wanted out of the loops, brutally pushing all of his family members away, and he really thought he found out why he’s been trapped. His thought process was that Mirabelle always landed the final blow on The King, and he was under the impression that he had been the one chosen to defeat The King lest he loops backward in time, an interesting thought but it was naturally untrue. That didn’t stop a desperate and depressed Siffrin from taking matters into their own hands and storming through The House themselves.

With his mental health quickly fleeting, Siffrin's Wish Craft dramatically increased in performing new abilities and amplifying his stats and health bar up to level 99, letting him effortlessly clear The House’s sadness and bosses that gave him trouble before. Having subconsciously used Wish Craft to get all of this, Siffrins body ultimately faltered due to an overuse of immense Craft, which caused his body to later become a state capable of maintaining this power.

Craft

To get through The House and to fight The King, Siffrin learned brand new Craft moves to act as coverage since he’s without his friends in this part of the game. This includes all forms of attack, stat boosts and healing options to round everything out.

(Rock.) Without Isabeu by his side for once, Siffrin learned an extremely powerful Rock Craft attack with no cooldown.
(Paper.) Since Odile is no longer traveling alongside him, Siffrin researched her Craft Type attacks to develop his own very strong Paper attack with no cooldown.
(Scissor.) Siffrin himself and his old Craft is now lost, luckily he still keeps his Scissor Type nature with this potent Scissor attack with no cooldown.
(Breathe.) Siffrin’s known for breathing in and out, though this time it isn’t to calm down, it's to increase his fighting capabilities by boosting his attack, defense and speed. 4 turns of cooldown.
(Heal.) With no Mirabelle to heal him, Siffrin learned his own means of restoring HP with his move, which heals 100% of his health. 3 turns of cooldown.

Mini-Looping

In this act and while climbing through The House to get to The King, Siffrin is against Looping anymore. While naturally still can do it the same as any other act, he performs a different variation of Looping in battle at this point in the story, which we are going to refer to as Mini-Looping to avoid any confusion with regular Looping. This variant makes it so when Siffrin is downed in battle, they restore 50% of their max HP, gives him a 20% boost to his variance and negates any debuff that he may have.

Spatial & Time Manipulation

During his mental breakdown throughout Act 5, Siffrin subconsciously was distorting the very fabric of space-time thanks to his extraordinary levels of Wish Craft. We see this in how The House actively changes the more Siffrin progresses, earlier on we see how corridors lead to opposite sides of The House and rooms being swapped with one another at random, but later we see rooms have been entirely changed almost as if the layout of The House has been glitched into behaving strangely. This was caused by Siffrin’s memories of previous loops along with his downward spiraling sanity fundamentally changing The House’s structure. The temporal side of things isn’t doing much better, as Siffrin experiences events that took place in different loops and the loops themselves made The Housemaiden repeat the same dialogue over and over again.

Reality Warping & Conceptual Manipulation

As it turns out, the conditions of Siffrin’s panic attack only got worse after he beat The King, where Wish Craft emitting off of Siffrin and the loops in general were breaking down reality itself and bringing back color to the world. Which was erased from existence a while ago because of Wish Craft, color, much like the Forgotten Island, was erased from this world so thoroughly no one could remember its existence and the entire world was black and white, made up of only different shades of it.

Furthermore, the color brought back into the world is red, the reason as to why lies in the fact that red is the color that shows up before something ‘breaks’ which is described as either when reality itself is being destroyed or the world righting itself is a Wish Craft spell has been broken. Like how The Universe will not allow anyone trying to remember or say The Forgotten Country’s name, but when it is actually said it breaks reality only for reality to reform. The implication of this is that The Universe is being broken by Wish Craft, which we know is something The Loops do, and then correcting itself, as we’ve seen this sort of thing happen before. Red and likely other colors are when reality and The Universe break for a brief period of time before The Universe corrects them back the way they were before. With Siffrin however, his sheer mental anguish was causing color to come back left and right with no signs of The Universe being able to correct itself. Causing The Universe to go haywire, skipping over points in time and rewriting itself to maintain functionality. This form of Wish Craft that Siffrin was performing was operating on a worldwide scale that nearly destroyed the whole world.

Sadness Manifestation & Merging

After failing to defeat The King on his own and promptly being frozen in time, Siffrin’s mind encountered a strange and cryptic entity known as “Mal Du Pays.” This is Siffrin’s sadness, all of his bottled up negative emotions and trauma felt throughout the game taken form in one being, makes sense given Sadnesses are physical manifestations of intense negative emotions that embody the emotion they are spawned out of. Sadnesses are very hard to kill because of this, defeating them just breaks them into remnants of themselves able to reform, and this seems to apply to Mal Du Pays as well since Siffrin is unable to do any damage to them. Though that could be because of Siffrin’s mental state. What isn’t part of his mental state is the fact that Siffrin actually transformed into his own Sadness that was trapped in his mind at the end of the game, adopting its name and physiology before being amplified with Wish Craft and being restored to his normal state after his negative emotions were dealt with.

Mal Du Pays

“I WON’T LET YOU GO HOME!”

Upon hearing that his family would be going home, Siffrin used Wish Craft from the loops emitting it around him in combination to him already becoming the very embodiment of his own mental health issues to turn into an entity with the power of the wish that was causing the loops and empowered by his own emotions, this form is dubbed in game as “Mal Du Pays”, same as his Sadness, and is also known as “The Played One.” Whatever name it may be, this is easily Siffrin’s most powerful state of being. He is a towering constellation, sucking in stars around him like a black hole and an impressive health bar. Being fueled by Wish Craft, this form lets him loop on command and he naturally gains the physiology of being part-Sadness along with it, which we have already gone into detail about. That helps since, in this state, Siffrin is the most self-destructive and unstable he’s ever been.

Loop

“Loop. Your ally Loop, here to help you with the loops. Easy to remember, right?”

While technically not the Siffrin covered in this blog, a Siffrin did ultimately get pushed to the point of no return; and in seeking an escape from their never ending quest, wished for it all to end, being turned into the depressed dazzling they now are, forced to aid another version of themselves.

Of course, for Siffrin to turn into Loop, he’d need to be backed into a corner, with his spirit shattered enough to make a regretful wish. As Loop, they’d be capable of flying, remembering events from past loops and a direct upgrade to their moveset, as is:

Craft

Having destroyed themselves and turned into a sentient star, Loop doesn’t quite have all the skills Siffrin has, but they have very similar Craft techniques. All based on their previous set of skills, even including their ability to loop backward in time, though in Loop’s case it is to a lesser degree. Besides that however, they have attacking moves, buffing moves and healing options all named just the most creative ability names ever made.

Loop Heal As it turns out, wishing for a way out of the Loops left Loop with the ability to loop back in time themselves, as confusing as that sounds. This is a limited form of looping compared to Siffrin, as it doesn’t affect any of Loop’s surroundings except themselves, but it still acts as a way of healing instantaneously.
Loop Attack An attack replacing what would be a normal attack, this is still Scissors Craft and a good means of chip damage.
Loop Big Attack A stronger Scissors attack with a greater cooldown, it's unknown what this move is based on.
Loop Buff Acting as Loop’s buffing move, this move boosts all stats by 50%, increases crit rate by 20% and removes all stat debuffs when used.
Loop Buy One Get One Three An attack obviously not unlike Siffrin’s “Buy One Get One Three” move, this is a three hit Scissors craft attack.
Loop Just Attack Loop’s most powerful attack, this deals insane amounts of Scissor damage onto the target while needing 4 turns of cooldown.
Loop Regen Another move like Siffrin’s own, this type modeled after “Regener-ade”, this move lets Loop regenerate 10% of their max HP per turn.

Acausality

If Loop wants to help Siffrin out on the loops, they’d of course have to be able to be unaffected by the loops themselves and as it turns out, Loop’s wish did exactly that. Now Loop is completely unchanged by loops warping space and time back to when it once was and even able to communicate with Siffrin in the in-between areas of loops. Take a shot everytime we say loop, dear god.

Power Nullification

A much stranger ability of Loop’s, during the time of Siffrin learning how to loop properly, Loop was able to prevent them from looping back to Dormont. Leaving them stuck in the house to learn until they progressed.

Asriel

Flowey the Flower

“Howdy! I’m FLOWEY. FLOWEY the FLOWER! Hmmm… You’re new to the UNDERGROUND, aren’tcha?”

After his dust spread through the royal garden, and Alphys injected determination into the first golden flower that grew to give the will to live to something without a soul, Asriel reincarnated as Flowey, Flowey the Flower! Who welcomes us to the Underground and will watch over our adventure from close at hand.

Rooting

Naturally, being a plant and having roots underground, Flowey can move underground to move from one place to another without being seen.

Shapeshifting

Although limited, Flowey can manipulate his face, changing it into Asriel's face, making it grow, mimic Frisk's face and create three circles. It looks cool, but isn't much use in combat, unless he wants to taunt someone's dead relative.

Voice Mimicry

Flowey is able to change his voice to imitate other people's voices, such as Toriel or Asriel's own voice. Menacing but not very useful in combat.

Fourth Wall Awareness

Flowey is very aware of the true nature of Undertale, he himself mentions that it's all just a game, and that if he restarts it, we'll never stop playing it. He is even mindful of us, asking us to let Frisk go off and live their life instead of restarting the game to do whatever we want.

Vines

Like all plants, Flowey has roots with different utilities beyond nourishment, such as closing an elevator tight enough for Frisk not to open it, holding back monsters, and attacking enemies as if they were projectiles.

Friendliness Petals

These petals may seem friendly and able to heal you, but they are nothing less than bullets, projectiles that Flowey fires at the player and can reduce their HP to 1, and can even create a circle of these attacks to kill you with no chance of escape.

Omega Flowey

“Do you really think you can stop ME? Hee hee hee… You really ARE an idiot.”

Made with the power of the 6 human souls, Flowey became an all-powerful monster, with the power to control the game itself and just one soul away from gaining the power of a God.

Data Manipulation

After getting his powers back, he not only regained control over the timeline, but also gained control over the game, being able to close the game, manipulate the intro, manipulate the Game Over screen, delete save files, and load others, which leads us to…

Loading

After deleting our save file, our friend Flowey created a replacement for us, that is... saving over our own death, so he can kill us over and over and over again until he satisfies his desire to see us torn to pieces. Flowey saves files in the middle of the fight and loads them whenever he wants, that allows him to load a previous file when he has lost all his HP to go back to the moment where he had the most HP, load right at the instant of Frisk’s death to kill them several times in a row, and leave us trapped in a loop of resets.

Spatial Manipulation

Modifying the combat box is something that several characters in Undertale have done (including Frisk themself), in Asriel’s case, Flowey is able to close the box so that Frisk can't move or dodge the petals.

Fire

Flowey is able to summon two flamethrowers, which shoot fire into Frisk’s soul and cause considerable damage.

Energy Blasts

From his strange... mouth? Flowey can fire energy blasts

Spawning

Who says Flowey should be alone? In this attack, Flowey is able to spawn plant-like creatures with mouths full of teeth, which bounce back and forth to damage the enemy. Then, he is able to summon giant flies that fly in the direction of the enemy.

Flowey Nukes

Being based on Fat Man bombs, Flowey can summon a horde of bombs that explode as they fall, damaging the enemy. Although they may seem small, this is because Flowey's PhotoShop resources are much smaller than Toby expected when he added them to the game.

Absolute God of Hyperdeath

Not using even a fraction of his true power, Asriel evolves into his final form, the Absolute God of Hyperdeath, where he becomes much more powerful and dangerous than before, to the point of endangering the entire world of Undertale. In this form, Asriel gains new abilities, which are:

Paralysis

Once Asriel obtained his final form, Frisk lost the ability to move their body at all, this was confirmed as an effect of Asriel's powers in the Legends of Localization book, where it is stated that Asriel immobilized Frisk.

Energy Attacks

During his final phase, Asriel attacks with energy blasts that he fires from his hands in hard-to-dodge patterns. In his final attack, Asriel creates a massive coloured attack, large enough to cover the entire combat square and impossible to dodge.

Support

Siffrin

Loop

Thanks to his handy craft, Sif is able to communicate with Loop to get a better sense of the situation they find themselves in. While Loop for the most part refrains from interfering, when situations become dire, they have no issue getting involved one way or another, such as was the case during ACT 5 by aiding Siffrin’s family. No matter what, Loop will always be by Siffrin’s side as not just a guide, but emotional support.

Asriel

No one. Asriel has no allies to turn to, maybe the flies that PhotoShop Flowey can summon, but nothing else, I guess this is what happens when you kill all your friends. But don’t worry Asriel, you have my full support… —Morta

Feats

Siffrin

Overall

  • Traveled the world for a while after his country was erased.
  • Defeated countless Sadnesses, including losing his eye in battle with one.
  • Became a Savior in Vaugarde aiming to stop The King from freezing the country in time, doing so thanks to The Loop.
  • At the threat of his family going home and leaving him behind, he became his own depression manifested with the power of his wish.
  • Defeated The Loop, The King and his own depression personified.
  • The silliest billy to ever silly.

Power

Speed

Did you know this game doesn’t have dodging as a mechanic?

Durability

Not a durability feat

Asriel

Overall

  • Finished Undertale over and over again, doing everything the game has to offer
  • Killed and solved every monster's problems
  • Stole Asgore's soul and all 6 human souls to nearly destroy humanity
  • Manipulated everyone without them knowing it to lead the way to the pacifist route
  • Absorbed the souls of every monster in the underground, becoming a God
  • Defeated Sans
    • That’s actually hard…

Power

Speed

Durability

Scaling

Siffrin

Your Party Family Members

It can’t be helped that, fighting with them against Sadnesses for over a year, Siffrin would be able to scale to his party- no, family members. He is considered the fastest out of all of them and with the right XP can deal more damage then them, in Act 5 he was so much stronger then he started out with them that he could go through the entire house that he and his family struggled with on first attempt.

Your Foes

Along

Asriel

Monsterkind

Flowey has done everything the world has to offer, has forgiven everyone, and has even killed everyone, except Asgore. However, with the Six Souls in his possession, Flowey planned to wipe out all the monsters, and absorbed all the souls from the underground, becoming a God superior to all the monsters seen before, so he should obviously scale all. (Read Before the Verdict for ALL of these)

Strength

Speed

Both

Humans

Empowered by the Determination of 6 human souls, having had the soul of Chara in his power, and with a determination equal or superior to that of Frisk in his prime, Asriel is comparable or superior to anything humanity can do.

Cosmology

In Stars And Time

As expected from an RPG themed around space-time, the universe, time and time loops, In Stars and Time has been shown to have many references to it as a vast cosmology. Firstly, it's important to note that The Universe is a real deity, apart of a religion forgotten since the lost country was wiped from everyones memories. The Universe is responsible for the Loop in the first place, as Wish Craft formed a link between it and Siffrin as well as merging his wish with others in Vaugarde. Siffrin, who still remembers bits and pieces of the religion, states that The Universe is infinite and always growing. If that’s not enough, the Loop created via a connection to The Universe ignores the limits of space-time to rewind and erase the timeline while creating a new on top of it, meaning that there is only one timeline which is the timeline that goes from Start Again Prologue and into ISaT. Given the Loops are known to affect The Universe and timeline this way, as well as Wish Craft causing breaks in reality and The Universe, the Loops should scale to it. Which equates to Mal Du Pays, Siffrin’s cosmic form, scaling to it, as it is made from the full power of the wish that Siffrin was using for the Loops and that was emitting around him. Making it baseline Universal at bare minimum and getting up to High Universal - Universal+ based on The Universe’s size.

While there is only one timeline in the game, starting a new game doesn’t reset this timeline, it makes a new one and a new Siffrin for you to go through the same story with. In essence, a new timeline separates from the other one. There is no way for anyone to scale to this, but it does show that there are potentially multiple realities present in the series.

Undertale

Yes, I think at this point we all have an idea of how big and interesting Undertale’s cosmology is, so I’ll try to get straight to the point without going on at length about details you all know.

As you all know by now, there are alternate timelines in Undertale, and the most well-known statement comes from our beloved Sans in his boss fight, where he first states “timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting…”, And then, he finishes off by telling us “heh heh heh... that's your fault, isn't it?”

In saying that this is our fault, Sans is clearly talking about resets/save and load, but something that people often ignore is that Sans also says “our reports showed a massive anomaly in the timespace continuum”, this anomaly is something that has probably been studied for a long time, and furthermore, this dialogue will be there even if you haven't died or loaded the game at any point. Yes, well, it's clear that the Frisk traversals add to this dialogue, but that can't be all there is, and here we enter another territory: Flowey. Flowey had control of the timeline long before Frisk's arrival in the underground, and has done many things with this power. To reinforce the idea that the number of timelines is much greater than people normally think, we will use the story that Flowey tells us in the course of the genocide route. During the entire time Asriel spent as Flowey, he spent his time exploring the world in its entirety, restarting the game over and over again, to the point where he has done everything the world has to offer, killed every monster, helped every monster, read every book, until he no longer has any other chance of everything Undertale has to offer.

While many people have argued that these timelines do not coexist, and therefore cannot be scaled to these, two factors are ignored:

  • Sans claims the existence of other sans, he says not to tell other sans-es about what happened, while you could argue that he refers to himself with other memories, sans never loses his memories after a reset, nor could he be talking about True Reset, since sans forgets everything related to that event and does not know about it.
  • In one of the many possible fun factors in the game, we meet Goner Kid, a mysterious character who appears with a low possibility among the 100 fun factors. They tell us that out there there is a world exactly like this one, but where they don’t exist, which terrifies them. This is a direct confirmation that there are more timelines exactly the same in almost every way except for several details, such as the lack of some characters.
  • Alphys talks about the possibility of alternate universes out there, which could have many interpretations, but possibly refers to the existence of other timelines

Exact number

It is difficult, if not impossible, to give an exact number of timelines. Yes, you could say that every fun factor or every possible ending is a separate timeline, but the problem is that every reset leads to a whole new timeline with the above argued, co-existing timelines that the characters can scale, which begs the question of how many resets Flowey did during his entire time underground, technically impossible to know, as Flowey spent years testing every possibility the world has to offer, and if the player wishes, he can do as many resets as he wants, plus the 6 fallen humans also had this power, and there are several reasons to believe this:

In conclusion, it is not possible to give an exact number of timelines that exist in cosmology, these timelines exist for every reset and have been made countless, by Flowey, the other humans and finally Frisk. Although the number is potentially infinite, there will never be an infinite number of timelines, but an absurdly gigantic and unknown one that will continue to grow without limit: the only limit is us.

Weaknesses

Siffrin

As one look at this game will tell you, Siffrin is not at all a perfect fighter or person that remains calm in every situation. They are terribly mentally unwell even before the Loops started and are very open about hating himself, along with putting others' needs above his own. We’re talking about a guy who’d rather spend countless Loops dying by enemies or killing himself trying to figure a way out on his own then open up to his family for help or about his issues. At one point irrationally thinking the solution to the Loop being to kill The King by himself, causing him to push everyone of his family away and break them down based on facts he knows about them. Speaking of which, his emotional attachment to his family is the very reason the Loops started and this emotion bottled up into its own sadness that was merged with Siffrins Wish Craft into Mal Du Pays, an entity made from the panic Siffrin had at hearing his friends would go home and leave him.

Although Mal Du Pays is a case of him using Wish Craft on command, it is still a panicked reaction and we’ve never seen Siffrin weaponize Wish Craft in any way besides this. He was subconsciously using it near the end of the game, but this was a byproduct of his mental breakdown and put a massive strain on his body that then prompted him to use Wish Craft to evolve into Mal Du Pays. To say he could use it to the same effect as other Wish Craft users like the ones who erased color or the country from existence isn’t entirely truthful. Another notable flaw Siffrin possesses is his memory problem, he is often forgetful and misplaces things which is why he holds onto what he cherishes so dearly, but there are times where his mind completely blanks on the names of those he loves. Which only causes more panic for him. Besides that though, Siffrin’s Scissors Craft is weak to Rock Craft and he is noticeably more frail than his other family members. He’s also scared of ghosts and has bad perception skills with that missing eye of his.

Asriel

As powerful as Determination is, it is not an absolute power, and in fact, it has several disadvantages to consider. While the most determined being will have control over the timeline as a whole, this will only hold true as long as you are the most determined, as the appearance of someone with a stronger will will will cause your powers derived from Determination to disappear completely, and you will be unable to return to save or revive until you regain control over the timeline.

The Immortality granted by Determination is also not eternal or absolute, in fact there is a method of nullifying it that even characters without Determination or denial of Immortality can do: make you give up. Determination is literally the will to live and persist after death, if this will is broken by a fight that you are unable to win, where you constantly die, Determination eventually runs out and you die for good. This has happened before, such as with the 6 human souls, who had determination by emanating the determination that Flowey uses, giving hints of having reset the timeline and Asgore already knows that humans die and come back fighting against him, although it is not clear what happened, most likely the humans, unable to win, have given up and died for good. But more importantly, Flowey says he can come back to life as long as he is determined to live, confirming that determination depends on whether you have the will to keep living.

Not even Frisk, who has the most determination in the underground (tied with Asriel's) is saved from this, as it happens in the fight against sans, sans tells Frisk to give up and not come back, the whole point of his fight is to make you give up by not being able to win. The same thing happens in the fight against Asriel, an enemy impossible to defeat in a conventional fight, who keeps killing you over and over again, at a certain point in the fight, he claims that Frisk becomes a little more detached from the world every time they die, confirming that the more times Frisk dies, the closer they get to dying, and their friends become more and more oblivious to them. Basically, dying until you give up was Sans and Asriel's goal, and not even the user with the most powerful determination is spared from this.

Before the Verdicts…

Siffrin

The King and his Time Shenanigans

The King is a lot of things. A coward, an egoist and a monster; but what he is not is weak. For without the aid of Wish Craft, the King would not have performed such tremendous feats. You might be wondering though, how can freezing objects in time with the use of magic ever be calculated? It is curious, but the narrative hands enough info for estimating this kind of power.

Freezing Vaugarde

As the story repeats, Time Craft by itself requires an extensive amount of energy and craft to perform, to such an extent that, to even stop time for a singular second, would mean instant death to any regular person. Utilizing this knowledge, we can connect the dots and come to the conclusion that stopping time for a second consumes (at the absolute very least) all the energy a person contains at any given moment.

So while it may be impossible to calculate the energy output solely out of freezing the land in time, we can however calculate for how long the King has been freezing in time to come up with an estimate.

We vaguely know that the King arrived in Vaugarde around a year or so ago when the story began, so two time frames were used (six and eleven months respectively); while the average human body contains 89,603 megajoules. Converting the two timeframes to seconds lands them at fifteen and twenty eight million respectively. Thus doing the math, the results reach the triple digit megatons in mountain levels of powers.

Is this logic flawless? Not at all, but it is regardless a fine estimate without reaching into the far more cosmic ends for the verse. There too exist other methods to calculate this although we found them flawed in one way or another.

Freezing the View

When Siffrin and co. enter the House’s observatory room, they note how the window shows a starry sky, despite it being morning outside. While one may thus extrapolate that the King froze the sky with his Time Craft, this cannot be the case, as… well, it is morning outside. He clearly has yet to have frozen the sky above Dormont. The more likely explanation is that his Time Craft froze the rays of light hitting the window. Like taking a picture, this would render the House and surrounding area in eternal nighttime, even as the planet’s day-night cycle continued.

In Stars And Loop

Regarding Loop (the character, not the power), there’s a lot of vagueness regarding them and their form. Of course, Loop is just the transformed Siffrin from the prologue game, though their claim to be a star is certainly noteworthy.

Unfortunately, though, there does not seem to be enough context (if any for that matter) that supports the idea of Loop being an actual star, and arguments like Loop not immediately bursting the whole environment into flames as well as being able to be touched by Siffrin would contradict such notion.

As biting a star, that too lack context and is so vague they’re unusable. The feat itself simply be a result of Wish Craft’s magical properties allowing Loop to transform rather than them biting a literal star.

Immesurable Odile

Stayin’ still, eyes closed…

Let’s contextualize this feat a bit. Siffrin has transformed into his cosmic form, Mal du Pays, and is fighting his family. Through some of Siffrin’s dialogue (and Loop), they are able to glean that he has been stuck in a time loop. In sheer horror, Siffrin begins to loop back in time, only for Odile to forcibly stop the loop. She then tells Siffrin he’s going to stay there until they’re all done talking, and Siffrin screams internally that he, “CAN’T LET HER DO THIS!!!”

With that out of the way, the blog team would like to present why we think this could be interpreted as an immeasurable (or at least MFTL+) speed feat. Our justification will be presented as responses to several questions and potential counterarguments.

TL;DR: The game clearly portrays Odile stopping Siffrin’s loop mid-way. Depending on how Siffrin’s loop is interpreted, Odile’s reaction would either have to be MFTL+ or immeasurable. This is a massive jump in speed, but it’s a perfectly valid feat, thus we see no problem. It would scale back to Siffrin as he is the fastest of the group.

Did she actually stop the loop after it began? What if she just acted beforehand?

This is the first and biggest question. We tossed around the idea that Odile either acted just before the loop began and/or she had prepared a spell that would automatically stop a loop. There is some credence to these interpretations, as Insertdisc5 states in an official Q&A that, “she made plans.” Besides that, however, all signs seem to point to Odile having reacted to and stopped the loop midway.

Let’s go over the moment again: Siffrin begins to rewind back in time, as indicated by the screen blackening and the tape rewind sound effect. Then, a record scratch sound effect plays, followed by Odile holding her hand out with a diamond shape (more on that in a bit) surrounding her. The gang then remarks about the “weird feeling” and the “smell of caramel” being Siffrin’s Time Craft. This would all indicate that Odile stopped Siffrin’s Time Craft while it was active; that is, she did not act beforehand. It is still perhaps possible that Odile had a spell that would automatically act for her, and that it simply had a delayed response.

However, there is nothing in the story to support this; if anything Odile holding her hand out suggests she was casting the spell herself. It's also important to mention that this is a Time Craft spell she is using, and a major part of the game is that Time Craft requires immense amounts of power to use for an extended period of time, otherwise the user can die at the use of it. Meaning that Odile couldn’t have set up this time spell prior, it was a last ditch effort to keep Siffrin from looping as it was happening, which supports the idea that she reacted to the loop while it was active. This would align with Insertdisc5’s Q&A response, as Odile could have planned for a spell to use against Siffrin’s Time Craft, further supported by the fact that even she wasn’t certain about the legitimacy of Siffrin looping through time before Siffrin accidentally told him. Which is what prompted him to loop back in the first place.

The final argument you could use against this feat would be to suggest Odile wasn’t being affected by the loop at all here, which frankly doesn’t line up with the game’s narrative at all. Siffrin’s stuck in a time loop with no one being able to remember what they’ve gone through besides him, Odile and the rest of the party are affected by the loops, being both physically affected by it and being rewound like the rest of the timeline. This applies to Odile even when she has figured out that Siffrin is stuck in a time loop, so she would have had to have been affected during Siffrin’s attempted loop here. Odile having some acausality in this regard is completely contradictory to the story at hand.

In sum, we believe the likeliest explanation—due to presentation and simplicity—is that Odile stopped Siffrin mid-loop herself, and thus would scale to whatever that entails.

Okay, maybe the feat itself is fine, but how do you calc it?

We have two ends for this feat: a finite end and an immeasurable end. We will present and consider both in this debate.

The finite end follows the game’s description of looping being “the Universe breaking” or “closing in on itself.” If this is the case, Odile would have had to react at 40.7 quadrillion times the speed of light (calc). We do see a diamond closing in on the party after Odile’s counterspell. This could be Siffrin’s time loop closing in on them all, at least after Odile froze it in place. This is supported in the fact that its established earlier in the game that the loop causing the universe to close in on Siffrin physically effects the party members with its smell and causing headaches, and when Siffrin tried to loop back in the finale, we hear the party describe “feeling weird” from the smell causing headaches. Meaning that they experienced the loop closing in on itself here, and Odile reacted to it.

The immeasurable end assumes time as a whole was reversing, and Odile was able to act whilst it was. Loops are said by The Change God, who has been watching it since the game began to be letting Siffrin “walk through time.” This is technically the simplest interpretation of Siffrin’s loop; again, the above explanation is technically not concretely literal, and Siffrin’s loop is effectively time reversal. Moreover, when Siffrin loops from a game over screen, we see them flying backwards which we can assume is the loop hurling him backward in time through the context of the loops making him feel “a tug on his stomach.”

Isn’t this a massive outlier? Wasn’t the verse in the hypersonic ranges before?

First and foremost, Mal du Pays sucking in stars would similarly net intercosmic speeds, providing further support for MFTL+. However, even outside of that, there is no reason to discredit a perfectly valid feat solely because it is a massive jump for the verse. There are neither any narrative constraints which would apply here. Plus this argument could be used against a variety of other verses (including Sif’s current opponent) to discredit the jump in speed.

And most of all… How does this scale back to Siffrin?

Simple: Siffrin is established to be the fastest of the group, both in lore and in stats. There’s no reason to believe Odile’s speed suddenly increased during Act 5—after all, they were all in a rush to find Siffrin. Ergo, since Siffrin > Odile, and Odile = immeasurable, then Siffrin = immeasurable.

Asriel

Aren’t Lost Souls standard?

While it would be funny if Asriel could summon lost souls and have Siffrin fight Sans, this is not what Asriel can actually do. During the fight against Asriel, we can see a dialogue saying that Frisk can feel the support of his friends from “somewhere”, implying that they are not in the same place of the fight, Frisk can also feel something resonating inside Asriel's soul and their friends' souls are inside Asriel's soul.

The lost souls are never summoned in the fight, they are inside Asriel's soul at all times and Frisk only accesses them through SAVE, this is consistent with what we are told about SAVE in Legends of Localization, which is the power to restore something to how it should be, or to physically rescue someone. In short, Frisk accessed the inside of Asriel's soul through SAVE to rescue their friends, and Asriel cannot simply summon them. The game also states that Frisk reached out to Asriel's soul and called their friends, who are somewhere, so it's clear what happened.

What happened in the Omega Flowey fight?

Despite what it may seem, it is highly unlikely that Flowey has actually erased or rewritten the entire game's history or timeline, and there is a key piece of dialogue that explains this:

As Flowey says, he has not yet left the barrier nor destroyed the humans or the monsters, and that he still needs one more soul to become a God and destroy the world and both species. Evidently, Flowey would have been able to destroy the humans and monsters if he could actually change the story or manipulate the entire game, yes, Flowey has pretty cool powers that allow him to manipulate certain aspects of the game, like deleting Frisk's save point, manipulating the intro or closing the game, but nothing that could affect the entire cosmology. Speaking of deleting data...

The Xbox version of Undertale has something quite curious, because every time you disconnect the controller, a message appears on the screen where different characters talk to us. If we do this fighting against PhotoShop Flowey, letters will appear saying that if we don't connect the controller in 10 seconds, all our data will be deleted. This message evidently comes from Flowey, since it only appears in his fight, and the letters shake just like when Flowey speaks, and in fact, it would be consistent considering that Flowey can delete Frisk's save file and has access to the same power as Chara, who can delete files, so this would be a more than effective way to win, right?

Well, while it is true that Asriel can delete data, the problem with this mention is that... not connecting the controller doesn't delete your data at all, only the game restarts. Yes, this is nothing more than an empty threat by Flowey who doesn't prove to do this at all, and the fact that he needs one more soul to destroy the barrier and wipe out humanity is also contradictory with Flowey being able to delete all data in the game at any time.

HYPER GON-ER END IT ALL!!!

Let the world just pass me by…

And here we are-the most infamous feat in all of Undertale powerscaling; Hypergoner.

Arguments For

During the fight against Asriel, Azzy states that “It's time to purge this timeline once and for all!”, and then proceeds to summon a giant head that begins to swallow everything around it, an attack that Frisk can completely avoid by just running away. Because Frisk can run away without even taking damage from the Hyper Goner, this is a speed feat worth talking about. Firstly, the Hyper Goner swallows the timeline, using the diameter of the universe, this is measured at 146.642 Quadrillion times the speed of light, however, being technical, Frisk not only exceeds the speed of a universe-swallowing attack, but is actually running through the space-time continuum and dodging fragments of the timeline to escape its destruction. By moving beyond linear time, this feat clearly qualifies as immeasurable speed. In the Japanese version of the game, Asriel directly states that he is going to destroy the timeline entirely, so this can be used as good support because Toby Fox directly helped with the translation into this language.

You could argue that the barrier was not destroyed after this attack, but it is incredibly easy to answer this (and in fact, other people have already done so), not only does the barrier have an ambiguous nature in the lore, but it could be on the level of the 7 human souls, as it was created by 7 of the greatest wizards, a single soul is unable to cross the seal, beings like PhotoShop Flowey still require one more soul to be able to destroy the barrier and the world, and even Asriel only manages to break the barrier with great effort despite his great power. So, the Barrier could very well survive something a casual Asriel did.

Arguments Against

As compelling as the feat may sound, we think there are a lot of points against it that make it difficult to make it actually usable. Don't get us wrong, running away from an attack that swallows the timeline is definitely something that requires Immeasurable speed when moving beyond linear time, but we don't think this has happened. First of all, all of Asriel's dialogue during the battle needs to be carefully analysed, starting with the most obvious ones:

Asriel confirms that he is not interested in destroying the world at all. While the word world is varied in Undertale, we already know that it can talk about the whole structure of the game as well as a timeline, Goner Kid is the example of this, mentioning that there can be a world just like this one but where they don’t exist, talking about another timeline, because they come from a fun factor. So, Asriel's goal is not to destroy the world, there would be no reason to destroy the timeline, but let's move on:

This statement is even more curious, not only does Asriel confirm that he can't manipulate the timeline (so he couldn't destroy it), but he also states that his goal is just to restart everything. This goes hand in hand with his statement about not wanting to destroy the world, which makes his real goal clear; it's not to destroy the world, it's just to restart it. But how? Easy, by True Reset. Flowey confirms directly that his goal was to get the True Reset to reset everything, rip everyone out of the timeline and send them to another one where no one would remember anything. He also states that the True Reset is the power to “erase” everything, and what else does Asriel say in the fight?

Yes, this is another more than explicit confirmation of what Asriel wanted to achieve: reduce everyone's memories to zero and erase all of Frisk's progress through the True Reset. It's more than clear that by saying he's going to “purge” the timeline, Asriel is talking about erasing it along with Frisk's progress via True Reset and sending everyone to a new timeline. And if you're wondering why Asriel said it's time to purge it, the answer is simple. For some reason, Asriel believed that the Hyper Goner was enough to kill Frisk for good, once Frisk dies, Asriel would have control over the timeline and could erase everything that happened in it by True Reset, sending everyone to a new timeline while the current one would be erased, after all, this is the power to erase everything.

In summary and explaining the whole argument, it is true that Asriel can erase the timeline, but not through the Hyper Goner, but through the True Reset, the power to erase everything and send everyone to a timeline where nothing happened, eliminating their memories. Asriel has no reason to actually destroy the timeline, he himself claims he doesn't want to do that and just wants to reset everything, and the Hyper Goner is just a weapon to kill Frisk and thus control the timeline to use the True Reset at will.

Ultimately, this will depend on whether you want to believe in the feat or not, but among the members of this Blog, the vast majority agree that this feat is not really valid, and the others just didn't have an opinion or weren't entirely sure. Even if its use is questionable, it will be taken into account as a high end for Asriel in the verdicts.

Chara Scaling

Chara's feat is ultimately the most impressive in all of Undertale by far, and before we move on, let's dig a bit into this particular feat. Chara, after gaining their absolute power, says it's time to erase this world and move on to the next, and proceeds to destroy the entire game in one massive damage attack. We know that the entire game was wiped out and recreated not only because Toby tried to wipe out the game after this attack (though he failed), but because absolutely everything is reset to 0, even the remnants of other timelines as memories of characters like Toriel. Chara also uses True Reset to recreate the game, and True Reset deletes every file in the game except for the genocidal route, and is described as the power to erase everything. Chara affected the entire cosmology through this attack and when creating the world again.

Now, the more important question is: how can Asriel scale to this level?

While Asriel did not demonstrate something similar to Chara, there are fairly simple ways for him to reach this level. The first, is the source of Chara's powers. Chara gives us a pretty clear dialogue of where their power is born:

Greetings.

I am Chara.

Thank you.

Your power awakened me from death.

My ‘human soul.”

My “determination.”

They were not mine, but YOURS.

Chara has no determination of their own, their determination is ours, the player's, and at the same time Frisk's determination, this is corroborated since Chara needs our human soul to recreate the game, just as they used our determination to destroy it. Even at maximum Determination level, Frisk is unable to do any damage to Asriel, and Asriel's determination is so big that it prevents them from using their save point, confirming that Asriel's determination > Frisk's Determination, the same that Chara used at the moment of destroying and recreating the world.

But another important point comes from Asriel's dialogues during his fight and after the pacifist route. Asriel says that his original goal was to destroy the world, and get the True Reset power to reset everything again, ripping them out of the timeline and erasing every memory, including those who remember everything, like Flowey himself, Frisk or Sans. This is exactly what Chara does, and to reinforce this argument, Asriel planned to use our determination for this, he claims that our determination would be the power that would finish us off as he would use it, and that we would be the one who would do everything Asriel wanted to accomplish. In general, it is clear that Asriel was going to use our determination as well as Chara to do exactly the same as Chara, and Chara uses a determination unable to surpass Asriel's or harm him at all, so Asriel could not only do the same as Chara, but is superior by a huge margin.

Flowey lacks emotions?

No.

This rather common confusion is due to a misinterpretation of Flowey's dialogues in the genocidal route, when he talks to Chara about how he became a flower, and people have taken specific words to mean that Flowey lacks any kind of emotion and therefore resists Empathic Manipulation or Chara has Fear Manipulation in layers.

This topic brings us to the explanation of what monster souls are. The souls of monsters are made of love, compassion and hope. Why is this important? Because Flowey has no soul at all and it is something that is stated many times, Flowey is Asriel's consciousness in something soulless that got the will to live, this would explain that Flowey does not feel love; he literally lacks a soul, which is made of love. If we analyze well all that Flowey says, we see that everything agrees quite well with what has been explained:

Explicitly, Flowey states that he is not capable of feeling love, and that his compassion has disappeared. Precisely the two emotions that are part of the soul, and not all existing emotions. There are also several examples where Flowey demonstrates emotions:

In conclusion, it is true that Flowey lacks some emotions, specifically: love, compassion and hope, as he lacks his soul, the source of these emotions, but he has shown to have other emotions, and to say he doesn't have any is a huge mistake.

Soul Dura Neg

Ultimately, the default ability in Undertale's scaling is Soul Manipulation. But... what if we were to say that this skill does not serve to negate the enemy's Durability?

“Monsters are able to take out the soul of humans to attack it”

This is not true. Frisk is the one who takes their own soul out of their body when fighting. This is confirmed in the genocide route, where after clearing an area of monsters, no more enemies will come, with the message “but nobody came”, still, the player's soul comes out of his body to go to the battle screen, even if there is no monster to take out their soul, since nobody came.

“Damage to the soul of the enemy ignore its durability”

With the first element clarified, it is necessary to remark something. Monsters are able to damage Frisk's soul, but once Frisk takes out their soul in combat. This is only a case of Non-Physical Interaction, not durability negation. It's as if we wanted to grant durability denial via soul damage to any character that hits a ghost, it just doesn't work this way. If the soul is inside the body and not exposed, monsters are not able to damage it, which leads us to....

The body dies and then the soul persists intact, it is not destroyed.

As we know, determination is the power for the human soul to persist after death. The death of what? Easy, the body. If real monsters could negate your durability by destroying your soul, it would make no sense that Asgore has been able to keep the souls of fallen humans, or that souls persist after the death of their bodies. Evidently it is necessary to first destroy the body before having access to the soul, this is told to us very explicitly when Flowey needs to finish killing Asgore and then, with his soul exposed after the death of his body, only then was Flowey able to destroy his soul. This makes more sense when we take into account that, Flowey was never able to defeat Asgore because of how strong he was, when he should be able to kill him through Durability Negation, and Flowey was only able to kill Asgore with the help of Frisk, by killing him when he was on the verge of death after fighting, as he claims.

Armor protects from soul damage

This is definitely the strongest point of all. If real monsters could negate durability by damaging the soul, it would make no sense whatsoever for you to be able to reduce the damage monsters do when wearing armor. True, there is some justification with the Tutu, whose description is “If you're cuter, monsters won't hit you as hard” (ignoring the fact that this description says that monsters won't hit you as hard, which confirms that soul damage is done by physical strength), but the other armors reduce the damage by literally being armors that protect your body and add more durability, which would be ignored by a true soulhax.

The time to kill someone is very late

With everything mentioned above, this point is very easily explained. If monsters could negate durability by attacking your soul, it wouldn't take so long to kill Frisk, who has a similar AP to them, which makes sense with the fact that.

  1. Armors physically protect Frisk.
  2. You need to destroy his body to access his soul

This even extends to characters like sans, who with a fairly low stats difference (Wall vs Building) takes a good while to reduce Frisk's HP to 0, while Sans has who does have durability negation via Karma takes a considerable time even against characters with stats not too far from his.

Regarding Calcs and Feats

Undertale, the whimsical, wacky indie RPG it is, has a lot of contentious strength and speed feats. The following is a rundown on several performed by Monsterkind and our opinions on them. Some of these feats are grouped together, as our reasoning on why we (don’t) buy them applies to both.

Greater Dog attacking with their barks & Shyren’s musical notes she sings

When you fight Greater Dog, one of its attacks are barks which are literally represented as the word "BARK." Similarly, when you fight Shyren, she attacks with sound projectiles, represented as musical notes. While these attacks don’t one-to-one resemble soundwaves, there is otherwise little reason to assume they are not so. They originate from the characters’ mouths, their mouths are showing opening to release these attacks, and they’re otherwise clearly meant to resemble sounds they are making (barks and singing, respectively). We will thus be using these feats.

Lesser Dog can stretching its neck “infinitely” into the cosmos & Undyne launching a puck so far it never came down

There was some back and forth on the Lesser Dog feat. In sum, when you pet Lesser Dog, its neck grows; and when you pet it again, it grows some more; and when you pet it again, it keeps growing; and… you get the point. Fueled by your pets, Lesser Dog’s neck seemingly grows ad infinitum; it’s even stated by the River Person that its neck “stretches infinitely into the cosmos.” If we were to take this literally, this would be an amazing feat of speed. The issue is that this is impossible following in-game lore, as Monsterkind at that point is unable to escape the Barrier encasing the Underground. Individual monsters can only leave with a human soul, which naturally Lesser Dog would not have access to. It’s much more likely the River Person’s statement was hyperbolic.

Now, does Undyne throwing a puck so far it never came down have the same issue? No, for one simple reason: it’s after the monsters have escaped the Underground. The problem is instead the vagueness of the feat itself; we cannot be certain whether the puck reached outer space or if it just flew out of range. We are neither sure of the direction in which Undyne threw the puck. We have calcs for multiple potential ends and interpretations, but to be on the safe side, we will assume the more conservative results.

Napstablook shut the blinds on Flowey’s absorption before it could reach him

This is a particularly infamous feat in Undertale scaling. After defeating Asriel in the True Pacifist route, Napstablook describes his encounter with Asriel’s absorbing light. He states that, “i saw the snails on the farm disappear. then i heard a knock at the door. the flash of light wanted to come in… i closed the blinds…”

This has sometimes been extrapolated as a relativistic feat, as Napstablook was able to close his blinds before the absorption reached him. However, light would not “knock” on surfaces like doors, and so we don’t believe this to be actual light. This is not to completely disregard the feat, however. Flowey’s absorbing light did have to cross from the Barrier to Napstablook’s home at exceptional speeds. We have thus opted to use that speed for this feat.

Vulkin firing thunder attacks from a cloud & Tsunderplane being capable of out-flying the very same attacks (also Mettaton shooting electricity)

Self-explanatory: an enemy, Vulkin, seemingly fires lightning, and another enemy, Tsunderplane, is able to outfly these attacks. In short, we do not believe Vulkin’s projectiles to be actual lightning. While they do originate from a cloud, they otherwise do not resemble lightning; they are small, bolt-shaped projectiles fired outward in a semicircle. Moreover, Monsterkind attacks are magic-based, and thus are not necessarily composed of the elements they represent. Finally, there are other lightning-based attacks in the game which much more closely resemble lightning (e.g., Asriel’s Shocker Breaker), and these attacks are frame one.

In a similar vein to the issues with Vulkin’s “lightning,” we do not consider Mettaton EX’s electricity to be real; they are individual, bolt-shaped projectiles fired from his soul in all directions. Base Mettaton’s electricity, however, does more closely resemble electricity… but it’s frame one, so it doesn’t matter.

Knight Knight summoning meteors and a miniature sun with “solar flares”

Knight Knight—an enemy you encounter in the CORE—is able to not only summon a meteor shower, but also a miniature sun with solar flares. The meteors are even burning! If these are actual meteors, solar flares, etc., then this would certainly bring good AP and speed feats for Undertale. However, in a similar vein to the previous section, we believe these projectiles are wholly magical. To elaborate:

  • While Knight Knight’s meteors appear to enter from off the screen, upon closer examination, the majority of them spawn in on the screen. This means that they aren’t falling from orbit, and therefore can’t really be considered anything more than your run-of-the-mill enemy projectiles. Moreover, even if their on-screen spawns were disregarded, there are very few entrances from the outside world to the Underground, and Knight Knight’s meteors would thus have to precisely travel through most of the Underground if they were actually from orbit. This contradicts their presentation and just sounds silly in and of itself.

  • Knight Knight’s meteors are flaming, which may suggest they catch on fire due to travel speed. However—again upon closer examination—they appear to spawn engulfed in flames, and could be simply heated by magic.

  • The “solar flares” that emit out of Knight Knight’s sun don’t resemble actual solar flares in the slightest. They are circular, while actual solar flares are described as “ribbons” or “loops” (pun heartily intended). And even then, we have zero reason to assume this magical “sun” is reasonably a star, as once more, its magical properties are never stated (or to even be a direct 1:1 replica to a real star).

Mettaton breaks through a wall and Papyrus runs across his house fast

Both of these feats are pretty direct and there’s not much to analyze. We buy them.

Monsters are entirely made up of energy, and Alphys drank an energy drink containing radioactive waste

This is a relatively new argument for Undertale powerscaling. In short, Monster food is not digested; rather, it directly converts into energy upon consumption (longer explanation here). This gets interesting when you consider “Cherry Blossom GameBlood energy drinks,” a favorite of Alphys, the royal scientist. These drinks are stated to contain radioactive waste. Assuming this waste is uranium, Alphys could be ingesting 7.076 kilotons of TNT! Unfortunately, as you may expect, this runs into a few problems.

First and foremost, while uranium is the most common isotope in nuclear power, it is questionable to assume this waste is wholly uranium. This is especially so as the Underground uses magic for most of its functions, meaning this radioactive waste could be composed of magical elements exclusively used by Monsterkind.

Even if we were to assume the radioactive waste is entirely uranium, to get 7 kilotons from its consumption, you would have to assume the entire soda can (including the aluminium) is uranium, which is naturally not the case. We don’t even know the exact composition of the soda itself, when high-end assumptions are required for town-level AP. All in all, this potential feat requires too many assumptions to be considered for scaling.

Flowey absorbed the Underground

At the moment of becoming Asriel Dreemurr, Flowey generated a light that absorbed every monster in the underground, Napstablook mentions that this light made the snails in the farm disappear and wanted to enter his house. A lower end may take into account the distance between New Home and Waterfall, since at the very least it reached Napstablook's house, however, we know that this affected the entire underground since Asriel's description when analyzing it is “Legendary being made of every SOUL in the Underground.”, and while most monsters were at the end when Asriel absorbs them, there are others that were far away, such as the Training Dummy that won't move from the ruins, or the spiders in the ruins that can't leave or they would freeze to death in Snowdin. The reason this is not taken as a real light is because it does not follow its properties, it touches the door of Napstablook so it has mass (which real light cannot have), and the sound of the door reaches Napstablook before the light does, however, using the absorption speed is fine.

As for who scales, while you could say that Flowey didn't absorb human souls when performing this, this wouldn't make much sense. Flowey claims that he was never able to defeat Asgore, and in the beginning of the game, we see how a single attack from Toriel sends Flowey flying, while in the end, Flowey subdued both of them at once. You could also say that they were off guard and thus their defenses were reduced, but when the monsters were determined to help Frisk, they should be able to break free and easily beat Flowey Base, Alphys even states that it is impossible for Frisk to beat Flowey despite Base Flowey being a fodder that Frisk could beat. The vines that Flowey uses here are also identical to the roots that PhotoShop Flowey uses, while Flowey's vines look very different.

The monsters were able to block his attacks, yes, but Flowey was evidently playing games at this point, he should be able to kill Frisk with a single attack, but he was doing minimal damage over and over again at a great speed, in fact, by the time his attacks are blocked, Flowey was slowing down his attacks to torture Frisk, we clearly see how he attacks very fast but his last attack (which is blocked) moves extremely slow, and if Flowey had attacked seriously, he would have gone through all the attacks that got in his way.

But there is still hope for Low Tiers to scale to this.... Napstablook.

Yes, as funny as it sounds, being a ghost helps Napstablook become immune to Asriel's absorption and see everything happen. Napstablook claims that he saw this light come, the snails on the farm disappeared as they were absorbed, and the light tried to enter his house but he closed the curtains before it succeeded. Of course, this is not a real light, as it touches the door and thus has mass, and the sound of the knock on the door reaches Napstablook before the light does, so it would not qualify as something FTL. While, the mention is odd, as it could just be that the light was coming through the window and Napstablook closed the curtains to block its passage, you could argue that Napstablook reacted before this light came through the window.

So what is the result?

After calculating the path from New Home to the Ruins (since assuming more would be somewhat baseless), and taking into account the timeframe from when Flowey starts absorbing everyone until he becomes Asriel, we have a great result of.... 121.304 m/s, or Mach 0.35... yeah, a bit disappointing.

Flowey moves the elevator

This feat has been talked about quite a bit lately, where Flowey supposedly moves the elevator at high speeds to drop Frisk off at New Home. The only reason to assume that Flowey moved the elevator is that his roots appear at the door to prevent Frisk from getting in again... yeah, just that. That's just an assumption with no real sources, the elevator starts working normally after the dialogue, making the sound it makes when choosing the floor, then has a failure and collapses, which real elevators do when they fail. This is the same as what happens when Frisk arrives at the True Lab, where the power source fails and the elevator also falls.

In short, there is no reason to say that Flowey moved the elevator, on the contrary, all indications are that it had a failure due to the lab's power source and makes the sound of having failed rather than being physically moved.

Regarding Deltarune…

While Deltarune is certainly an interesting franchise, as it currently stands with Chapters 3 + 4, there is no legit reason to deem it as canon to Undertale; or in general, for the cast of either game to be comparable in stats or abilities to each others’ despite housing parallel characters and mechanics. So it won’t be considered for this blog and wouldn’t have altered the debate for that matter.

Art Section

(Ultra27)

(SunOreo)

(Morta)

^ he loves SunOreo

Verdict

Stats

While both of these characters start off as having ordinary levels of power in their respective verse, their sheer love and willpower has boosted them to one of if not the strongest in their series, fittingly enough. In terms of their base level of power, Siffrin is able to break brick counters with a strike equating to 416 Kilojoules, survive falling back to the ground from space and contend with The King, whose very size grants him a strength of 3.8 Megajoules and whose Time Craft is able to freeze a country in the span of under a year. There are many ways to go about calculating the power of the latter, but from our research, it's at least 347 Megatons of TNT, and at most reaching up to 619 Megatons of TNT.

Despite his appearance, Flowey is not something to underestimate in strength at all. For starters, he is comparable to Chara in his first arrival in the Underground, being that he survives a huge drop despite having the lowest defense level (40882,336 Joules). Flowey was able to kill every monster in the Underground, with the exception of Asgore, which makes him comparable to anything monsters have demonstrated, such as Knight Knight creating meteors and a tiny sun (0.021 Tons of TNT - 0.85 Tons of TNT), Mettaton breaking a wall (0.024 Tons of TNT) or Pyrope attacking with huge bombs (0.002 Tons of TNT), putting him solidly at Building Level.

This changes when looking at either one’s peaks, Siffrin’s form, dubbed in game as Mal du Pays, is a gigantic constellation that is constantly sucking stars into its body, making it way higher than any finite feat in Undertale. This didn’t mean this was the extent of what this form can do, in fact it is heavily implied and shown that this form utilizes the same Wish Craft that the loops use. Meaning that Mal Du Pays is able to scale to the loop's capabilities, as it's literally empowered by the same wish as the loops, and the loops are able to nearly destroy the planet, cause The Universe itself to close in around Siffrin and erase every timeline that it rewinds. Making it at least Universal in power and when looking at the cosmology, up to Universal+.

Asriel’s higher forms are a similar story, Omega, or Photoshop, Flowey is able to utilize nukes ranging from 19 Tons of TNT to 21 Kilotons Of TNT, destroy save files and control 6 of his very own courtesy of the human souls, which is up to 6x Universal. Asriel is even stronger, having literally infinite attack and defense, the ability to True Reset and Determination equal or superior to that of Chara, who is able to destroy what is at bare minimum a single timeline, or Universal+, and reportedly the whole game. Looking at the game’s cosmology and the amount of timelines there are, we know that there is a very large amount of them but it's unqualifiable and never stated, the highest number we do get on these is in FUN values where there are 100 possible “worlds” where things are different. Consider this a lowballed amount, because nearly Flowey has reset to the point of doing nearly all of what the underground has to offer and all humans have the power to reset. All in all, Asriel at his peak is at least 100x Universal+.

The comparison may be tricky but it is rather clear cut from here, despite Mal du Pays’s incredible potential, it was at least 100x weaker than Asriel’s potential. Even with Siffrin’s attack boosting Craft, Memories, Items and advanced forms of WIsh Craft, there was no way for him to close the gap. Especially since it is very likely Asriel is much stronger than the lowballed amount of timelines. So while Siffrin in base was stronger then Flowey, both Omega Flowey and Asriel were leagues stronger then base Siffrin and even Mal Du Pays regardless of any strength amplifications. Overall, we think that Asriel has what he needs to take Power for himself.

As for speed, this one’s somehow even more over the place. Base Siffrin is able to scale to Mirabelle catching The King’s shout at Mach 0.33 speeds and all of his party members were able to jump to Siffrin, who was in space, to hug him, which would need a speed of Mach 15 - 19. Siffrin flew this same distance when turning into Mal Du Pays, a form made of stars that it had sucked into its face, which on average would have a speed of 2.6 Billions c. Undertale has some pretty impressive speed demonstrations, such as Frisk and Papyrus running through Snowdin incredibly fast at 7.14m/s, Papyrus running through his house at 16.92 m/s, or Napstablook closing the curtains before Asriel's light reaches him, despite having covered everything in Underground (121.304 m/s). There are demonstrations of sonic speeds, such as Frisk dodging Greater Dog's barking (197.35 m/s) and Shyren's musical notes. But more impressive, Undyne hitting a disc sky high so that it never falls again (Mach 1.4 - 9.6)

Speed was relatively even with a slight favor of Siffrin, but when factoring in Mal Du Pay’s star sucking speeds, it blew anything in Undertale out of the water. Well, nearly everything. We still have to factor in both’s immeasurable arguments, which also have their own, higher finite ends, that being Odile stopping the loop and Hypergoner absorbing a timeline.

Odile’s feat comes from the moment where Siffrin attempts to loop backward after his family realizes he’s been looping through time. As Siffrin describes a tug on his stomach and as the loop sound effect plays, we hear Odile cast a Craft spell that locks Siffrin and the loop around the party in place, meaning that she reacted to and activated a spell mid loop. When loops occur, The Universe closes around Siffrin at 40.7 Quadrillion c and Loops physically tug on Siffrin’s stomach to drag them back in time in a process described as walking through time, which would be Immeasurable. This is able to scale back to Siffrin, as he is the fastest of the group and able to increase his speed with Wish Craft.

Hypergoner’s feat comes from Asriel using the attack to suck in a surrounding area, which has been argued to be the timeline, as Asriel states that “it’s time to purge this timeline” beforehand and other language versions of the game overseen by Toby Fox say that he is going to destroy the timeline entirely. The attack is Hypergoner literally absorbing blocks of… something, assuming this consumed a space is the size of a universe and with the timeframe of the span of the attack, Hypergoner can be calculated to be 146.6 Quadrillion c, and since its sucking up the timeline, it’d be Immeasurable. Both of these speeds can be traced back to reaction and movement speed, as Frisk is able to dodge these unknown blocks and Asriel obviously scales to them.

This meant that this discussion ultimately came down to which feat had better legitimacy and while the blog team does think Odile’s feat is usable, we sadly cannot give the same leniency to Hypergoner. The main argument against Odile’s feat is the creator of the game stating that she had plans for Siffrin looping, but that’s only in the spell itself and not setting up beforehand, as it is a Time Craft spell which Odile herself describes as impossible to sustain for a long period of time and we only hear her using the spell after the loop happens. Meanwhile, we’ve already gone into detail with the flaws of Hypergoner in its Before The Verdict section but we’ll recite what was stated there. To say Hypergoner was consuming the timeline is not supported in the context or dialogue of the fight and actively contradicts Asriel’s motivation, he wanted to erase everyone’s progress back to zero through the True Reset, not caring about destroying the timeline and the whole reason for the fight happening was for Asriel to take control of the timeline. Which makes no sense if he destroyed it mid fight both logically and narratively.

As funny as it sounds, Odile’s feat just has less issues overall, which is especially important because Base Siffrin should scale to this feat. Meaning that even Base Siffrin is at least tied with Asriel in speed, though technically Asriel holds a 3.6x edge if using the finite ends, and Siffrin being able to use Basic or Wish Craft, Memories and Items to boost his speed means he’d have way to break the speed tie. At most though, Siffrin is Infinitely faster than what Asriel could scale to. It may come as a shock, but we think Siffrin has better cases for speed.

We just threw a lot at you, so we’ll briefly recap everything stated. Base Siffrin is stronger than regular Flowey and Mal Du Pays was at least 6-100x weaker than Omega Flowey and Asriel. Siffrin comfortably matched Asriel’s best speed feats and exceeded them as Mal Du Pays by miles. Siffrin had the greater MFTL-Immeasurable arguments, which apply to him in base, and had several ways to increase his speed to worsen the gap or break the speed tie.

Arsenal & Abilities

Onto what is easily the most important aspect of the debate no question, both had a lot to unpack in terms of abilities and their kit was fascinating to compare. Due to the complexity of this section, we’re going to split it up into a few categories. First looking at their main abilities and offensive options in Versatility, then their defensive and unkillable nature in Immortality and lastly the specifics of their main powers in Wish Craft Vs. Determination.

For Versatility, we first need to look at the power progression in both characters, starting in their base form. Siffrin, starting out on his journey, is a varied Craft user, being able to use several Scissor, Rock and Paper craft. He can also use craft to boost his stats or heal, which he can do with battle items as well. Speaking of items, Siffrin has alternate daggers in Garden Scissors, which are especially useful for dealing with Flowey’s many plant attacks, and bombs which deal huge AOE damage. Flowey had a few of his own tricks up his roots, like the roots themselves which are used to restrain foes, magic projectiles in Friendless Petals and various forms of Soul Manipulation. Latter of which Siffrin or his family members have never been to shown resist, even though the loops would bring Siffrin back - this still meant Flowey could access his family member’s souls whenever he wanted. Both can gain more XP as their respective loops when on, meaning that they were potentially levels of power growth, though only Siffrin’s are kept after loops.

This power growth is recognized in their greater forms, Act 5 Siffrin and Omega Flowey or Asriel Dreemurr. Since Asriel can do pretty much everything Omega Flowey can, their power sets are going to be combined here. While not technically a transformation, Act 5 Siffrin is Siffrin during an intense mental breakdown that was altering the very loops he was in, this means that just about everything the form does is passive and on a worldwide to universal scale. In this state, Siffrin gains new Craft moves and the ability to loop backward immediately where he left off. More devastatingly, he can distort space-time by causing glitches in reality that changes the layout of the fight and causes events that happen in previous loops to occur again, like what happened to The Headhouse Maiden. This is the point of breaking down reality itself to where color is brought back into the world, something that was conceptually erased from existence centuries ago.

Asriel meanwhile is consistently shown the ability to affect not just the universe but the same itself, such as when Omega Flowey closed the game, changed its intro and even the game over screen. Asriel’s control over the game in this case is ridiculously potent, he’s able to match Chara’s Determination, who is able to wipe out the whole game in a single slash. Back to Omega Flowey, he’s shown to be able to close spaces in on Frisk and his ability to save over other’s deaths meant that he could load people back to a specific point of vulnerability to kill them over and over. Omega Flowey was even able to be stated to erase all of a player’s data, which although some holes in the statement, does support the fact that Asriel is capable of this type of Reality Warping. This is all without mentioning Asriel’s innate magic attacks, like shooting fire, stars and lightning as well as Hyper Goner which makes Siffrin trying to avoid Asriel’s attack rather difficult on the traveler.

At their peak, aka Mal Du Pays and Absolute God Of Hyperdeath, both not only become some of the coolest forms in all of RPGs, but are granted with amazing power. Mal Du Pays is a strange fusion of Siffrin and his own internal sadness being empowered by the Wish Craft that made the loops. This doesn’t just make Siffrin much stronger but makes him a literal constellation in size and constantly sucking stars into it like a black hole. It also gives him Sadness physiology, meaning he can regenerate from being sliced into pieces. Absolute God Of Hyperdeath is threatening in more ways than just a title, it dramatically increases Asriel’s strength and gives him access to the ability to paralyze his foes and shoot energy attacks such as curved trajectory attacks and a giant beam capable of taking the entire attack square.

All in all, they are pretty even in this category. In base, Siffrin’s items and Craft gave him a leg up in terms of flexibility and adaptability against Flowey, as well as having counters to his vines. But Flowey was still a tricky opponent, able to manipulate Siffrin or his family member’s souls however he wanted and his mobility and projectiles made a tricky foe to catch. In later forms however, both have displayed universal scaled reality warping; Siffrin’s may break reality on a conceptual level compared to Asriel’s informational level, but Asriel was much greater at actively using it unlike Siffrin’s which is passive but highly dependent on his emotional state. Both have shown to manipulate space and time through some means, control over fate and empower themselves to further degrees. Being technical, you could argue that Asriel having more abilities to pull from would win out, but for this section we’re looking at both that and the potency of it, the latter of which Siffrin has, it should cancel out either way. Overall, we think that Versatility ends in a Tie.

But does that really matter? Sure both’s kit and reality warping capabilities were really important no doubt, but with both’s immortality have the potential to minimize or completely negate some of the abilities of the other. In this section, we’re taking a look at them and seeing how they compare and contrast with one another.

For starters since it is less important to the debate, both parties have seemingly comparable levels of experience. While Siffrin overall has more direct combat experience due to his journey across Vaugarde fighting monsters, his time loop let him perfect his skill to a ridiculous degree even his party started noticing. Meanwhile our petal pal doesn’t get into as many fisticuffs as Sif, but still has murdered the entire underground on several different occasions as well as becoming a master manipulator.

Moving on, Siffrin’s most defining trait is, of course, the time loop. The time loop was created by Siffrin utilizing Wish Craft, combining his will with the will of the people of Vaugarde and linking that will to The Universe itself, binding him to it like a planet to a star. This Universe is a sentient higher power which gives him the ability to loop backward through time, ignoring the limits of space and time as it does so. When it does this, The Universe closes in on Siffrin and brings him to a place in-between time while erasing the previous timeline when he goes back. This usually results in Siffrin being taken back to the start, but there have been instances where he can loop back to where he left off. The Universe has been shown to be able to fix spatial and temporal anomalies, like Ghost Siffrins from loops that happened beforehand, rewriting itself to remain stable even in times of extreme reality distortion.

The loops naturally mean that Asriel can’t kill Siffrin with power alone but it also gets rid of a ton of his other abilities. Siffrin’s looped back in response to being frozen in time, being paralyzed wouldn’t be much different. Loop kept their ability to individually loop themselves even in a new timeline, and they gave up their wish to loop back, so Resets wouldn’t dampen the loop’s effectiveness. Soul or Data erasure wouldn’t work either, the loops have the same amount of Wish Craft as Wishes which have caused conceptual erasure, and it's been shown to fix the universe of anomalies by erasing them. There’s no reason to assume it can’t bring Siffrin back on this level, especially when it has when he endured saying his country’s name. We’ll mention Data Erasure as a potential wincon for Asriel later down the line, but erasing only Siffrin wouldn’t keep him down.

Asriel’s Determination was among one of the strongest in Undertale, rivaling even the player’s own supply of it. Asriel, ever since his time as Flowey, can use the manifestation of his own determination - save files - to save his progress in a timeline and load back to that save if he ever dies. He used this to experience everything the game had to offer, including using the fabled Reset, which rips everyone into a different timeline while stopping and starting these timelines. Determination is so powerful, that it can be used to deny death by regenerating the soul, heal in response to emotional support and survive attacks that otherwise would’ve killed them with only a small fraction of HP left.

With this in mind, Siffrin couldn’t kill Asriel directly either. The only reason Asriel didn’t use save files in his fight with Frisk is that Frisk’s Determination was blocking his own, in this debate, that’s not a factor. So any of Siffrin’s direct attacks wouldn’t keep Asriel down permanently, meaning almost all of Siffrin’s weapons, items and physical measures in general, partly thanks to Asriel’s durability advantage, were dead weight. Even if Loop’s Power Nullification negated Asriel’s use of save files to where he couldn’t access them, Asriel would still have his regeneration to fall back on which Siffrin just couldn’t break through. What makes it worse is that Siffrin’s ways of doing that were mostly limited to Wish Craft, something he has inexperience using.

In truth, both’s immortality were even as well, they negated a lot of the other’s options and left them only with a select few which could affect the fight entirely. Which we will get to soon in our next section. But both having really no means to directly kill the other, we have to consider this section a Tie.

That just leaves us with one final category, Wish Craft Vs. Determination. Yes, I know we mentioned these beforehand, but in this case we’re going to be going far more in depth with the comparison. Concluding with who comes out on top between these the sources of the two’s powers and immortality.

We can parallel both as the sources of their power allowing both their limitless potential. Starting with Siffrin’s Wish Craft, it is a direct result of the universe itself altering space, time and fate itself to literally will the user’s wish into existence; being capable of working on conceptual levels of might by directly erasing all color and every single thought and memory over a country. Meanwhile Determination is a tangible substance allowing their users to will their never ending hopes and dreams to reality by affecting the entire narrative of the game on a code/informational level. Sounds familiar, eh?

Though they may be extremely similar in idea, their powers work to entirely different degrees. Wish Craft can alter concepts, Determination at best only affects on an information level of the game. Meaning if Sif ever weaponized it, Asriel would have no way to counteract it.

On the other hand however, for Asriel to overcome Wish Craft, he’d need to erase the entire cosmology of In Stars And Time, of which he has two ways of doing so. Firstly, the aforementioned Hyper Goner. The Hyper Goner is mentioned as something capable of destroying the timeline, and Asriel mentions that he's going to purge it just before he uses it. While it is debatable and was addressed before the verdict, and we Blog members don't quite believe in this, it is a way to kill Siffrin if you decide to use it, as there will be no timeline and no universe to bring Siffrin back, and no time to go back to.

As for the second, and very similar option to before, is Asriel's initial goal: to destroy the world. Not only does Asriel have access to the greatest Determination in the underground, but he was about to use the player's Determination for his goals, which he only failed to do because of Frisk's determination to interfere. Asriel says he is no longer interested in destroying the world, but is still capable. Having the player's determination is important, because it is the same determination that Chara used to erase the world, removing all timelines and even the game's internal data. But…

Wouldn't Asriel be affected by this?

Most likely not. The determination of whoever performs this destruction is enough to survive, for example Chara, and the player's soul still exists after the destruction of the world, besides, Asriel is not an idiot to commit suicide, that was not his goal.

Asriel says he doesn't want to destroy the world, he wouldn't do this.

True, but if the fight drags on too long to the point where Asriel knows he won't kill Siffrin no matter how hard he tries, he could resort to one of these methods to finish Siffrin off once and for all. After all, Asriel could recreate the world at any time if he is determined enough.

However, these win conditions are still ultimately very specific, and with Siffrin’s great speed edge, he could certainly take advantage of the guttural difference between these two power sources.

Determination can and will run out eventually if their user doesn’t keep their morale up, while Wish Craft does not care, for it is simply the cold and cruel universe bending itself to fulfill a desired effect. Ironically enough, what makes Determination malleable and accommodating to the user is what makes it inferior to Wish Craft and the endless torment it inflicted onto Siffrin.

Though wasn’t Asriel planning on overtaking the timeline from Frisk due to their Determination? Can’t they do the same to Siffrin?

Yes, however, there’s no reason to assume they’re comparable besides very surface level characteristics, with Determination being more or less tied to the game’s save files while Wish Craft simply is the universe. You can’t overtake save files from a person who doesn’t even have save files. Even if they were, it could certainly be argued that Wish Craft transcends code due to being conceptual.

But there’s also one last aspect to consider for Siffrin, Loop. No, not the ability, the person. For as cruel and unforgiving as the universe was to Siffrin, the sole reason why they were capable of escaping their endless cycle was the support from their starry fellow. Loop’s constant support, guide and encouragement let Siffrin know to never give up no matter what even when all hope seemed lost. In comparison, Flowey, after gaining their compassion back, became extremely emotionally unstable, leading to their defeat at the human, a truly remarkable being who refused to give up no matter how many times they’d fall. And not to mention that, were Loop ever to be directly involved, their ability to nullify time looping could certainly come in handy against another time looper, stopping Asriel from coming back and eventually killing him for good.

Given the Loop fight, it’s highly likely Siffrin would be aware of Asriel’s methods of looping like he does, and given their partnership and Loop’s abilities, it’s definitely possible for Loop to stop Asriel from resetting. Their friendship is the biggest defining factor of finally getting an actual winner for this, as were it not for Loop, this fight could have lasted forever if possible.

This was a lot, huh? To put it simply, while Asriel’s Determination is nothing to scoff at and can end the fight with destroying the entire universe, Siffrin’s Wish Craft is superior for a war of attrition, and it’s far more likely for Loop to assist Siffrin in stopping Asriel’s way to loop in time. Once that happens, Asriel would be left with little options against Siffrin, giving the Lost Looper the final advantage.

Summary

Siffrin

“I… I wished I could just stay with everyone…!!! When we win against the King, then our journey ends, doesn’t it? Mirabelle will go back to the House, Isabeu to Jouvente, Odile to Ka Bue, Bonnie to their sister! You’ll all go back home!!! If we win, then you’ll all leave! And I don’t- I don’t want that at all! I just want to stay with all of you!!!”

Advantages:

  • More solid immeasurable speed arguments
  • Items and craft further or diminish any stat gap
  • Garden scissors are exceptionally useful against Flowey’s forms
  • The Loop cannot be stopped in any means
  • Wish Craft could affect Asriel
  • Has support with Loop, who can power null him
  • Got a nose!
  • Actually has (alive) friends

Disadvantages:

  • Infinitely weaker
  • Has never fought anyone similar to Asriel
  • Win conditions are extremely specific
  • True Reset could restart the entire fight
  • French.

Asriel

“I'm doing this because I care about you, Chara! I care about you more than anybody else! I'm not ready for this to end. I'm not ready for you to leave. I'm not ready to say goodbye to someone like you again...”

Advantages:

  • Vastly stronger
  • Could match immeasurable speeds…
  • Possesses a greater array of abilities
  • Determination makes Asriel nearly impossible to defeat…
  • True Reset could reset the fight…
  • Howdy!

Disadvantages:

  • ... but is an unreliable end
  • ... though it has limitations
  • Win conditions are extremely specific and require leniency
  • … but it does not help Asriel win
  • Cannot kill Siffrin for good
  • Loop power nulling is a more dangerous wincon against him
  • Kind of an asshole.

Make no mistake, this was an insanely complex match to work with, and it got to the point where many of us had to question “is there a winner at all?” It was a back and forth struggle, but in the end, the Looper Beyond Stars and Time had what he needed to pull ahead.

With many of us buying his speed end much more than Asriel’s ends, Siffrin would be more than capable of avoiding the majority of Asriel’s attacks, and given this type of fight is going down to a war of attrition, Siffrin would eventually match the Prince in power, and Asriel has no way to make up for that.

Speaking of war of attrition, thanks to Loop’s support, Siffrin’s loops will allow him to outlast, and Loop themself would be able to null Asriel’s loops with Wish Craft, giving Siffrin the only good win condition both can have. Given Wish Craft runs on higher sources of energy and will than Determination does, Asriel would be null of any sort of power and will eventually lose.

To keep it short, despite Asriel having a massive power advantage, Siffrin has ways around it, and the Prince has no surefire way to kill him without resorting to out of character options like destroying the game..

All in all, however, like a certain matchup between two indomitable human spirits, do not let the vote Talley give you any idea that this was a stomp. It’s an insanely complex matchup and certain arguments could be made for it to be a stalemate. However, from what we gathered so far, we all came to the same conclusion. Thanks to Loop’s support, blistering speed, and completely untouchable immortality, it was only a matter of time before Asriel’s Hopes and Dreams fell Under the Stars.

The winner is Siffrin.

Team Siffrin - (8) Ultra27, Stars, Toppat Torchwick, 8, Morta, Fenic, Spycrab, Necrostar

Team Asriel - (0) “But nobody came….”

Despite the God of Hyperdeath’s valiant efforts, no amount of Determination would overpower the compassion brought on by the cruel indifference of the Universe… but just maybe, the fellow prince can still grow…


(Comic by InsertDisc5, creator of In Stars And Time)

Next Time…

Lewis Pepper VS Duke (Mystery Skulls Animated VS Vampair)

Comments

  1. AxorandomSeptember 15, 2025 at 12:31 PM

    Woah! So cool seeing Siffrin powerscaling! Even more cool when some of my calcs are used!!! I, uh, don’t really agree with the result, though. A lot of the “cosmic calcs” for ISAT (like the universe closing in or Siffrin looking like they’re made of stars and having those move when being attacked) are just flowery language (it’s meant to represent Siffrin’s mental state being Not Good, not that the universe is literally closing) or just design elements which I don’t think mean anything (looking like you have stars in you is cool it doesn’t mean you are stars tho).

    ReplyDelete
  2. Bob maloneSeptember 15, 2025 at 3:06 PM

    How did radioactive waste get in the kiloton waste

    ReplyDelete
  3. Y3p owoSeptember 15, 2025 at 6:59 PM

    Ngl, quite a few things on here surprised me.

    Some of the stuff I feel confident in agreeing with, while other stuff I'm not as 100% sure in agreeing with.

    Though overall, and as someone who loves this MU, this is a well put together blog.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Y3p owoSeptember 15, 2025 at 7:01 PM

      Also everyone but Sans is effectively on fraud watch when it comes down to dura-negging is what surprised me the most out of this blog.

      Delete

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